Discussion What is the most important trait for a general/great general to have?

Discussion in 'Kingdom' started by BossYimz, Jul 9, 2016.

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Which is more important for a general/great general to have?

  1. Leadership skill

    75.0%
  2. Individual might

    16.7%
  3. Neither

    8.3%
  1. TheoryKing

    TheoryKing

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    Actually that was my bad , meant to put "or" (since I in one of the previous parts of that post, stated that a great general will be atleast good in one) so not really changing anything at all.

    "Most of the Great generals are Strong Warriors. And those who stand above those Generals are even stronger warriors than those under them. Meaning the higher up the Great General is, the stronger he/she will be when it comes to actual combat. And there are others who are Strong strategists meaning their individual might is their brain instead of brawns. So all of these people have strong individual might. "


    Sooo yea, just messed up on the and/or. I already acknowledged that there are great generals who are only good at one.

    Hence why the second question asked, if you're able to name 1 top tier general of Ouki/Renpa's caliber who was not a warrior.

    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 10, 2016, Original Post Date: Jul 10, 2016 ---
    .... ok... so where did I say they weren't? O_o Where did I say ability of leadership is irrelevant? Please reread my posts.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 10, 2016 ---
    "encourage their men to fight at their highest potential" absolutely correct, but when does this happen? When the general himself is leading the charge (ex. Ouki, Duke Hyou, Moubu, Renpa). And why exactly then? Because they see their leader slaughter the enemies (ex. Shin himself).. and how does that happen? Individual might.

    Though what i'm initially trying to simply state was, Shin can't be the strongest Great General under the heavens if he cannot best Kyoukai in 1 vs 1. As when she becomes a Great General, she'll automatically be put above Shin, whether hes the captain of the unit or not. Due to her being smarter and stronger than Shin. Now Shin in order to counter that will need to have instincts superior to her strategy, and combat prowess superior to hers.

    And that from this arc it should be the start of Shin > Kyoukai (not as in from this chapter Shin > Kyoukai automatically, but instead moving towards that from by the end of this arc.)
     
  2. Byakko Zoro

    Byakko Zoro

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    You guys need to agree on what constitutes 'leadership' and 'individual might', otherwise this discussion is useless. We need clear, agreed upon definitions so we're all on the same page.

    Anyway, every general must possess command over his troops. This is the most identifiable, salient, key things about a military leader. Coalition army - who's the leader? Riboku. Why? He commands all troops.

    In the Battle of Sai, you had a bunch of untrained civilians, makeshift soldiers. Without someone to lead them, all hope would have been lost. That's where Sei, the political authority, the Voice of the People, came in to emotionally lead this derelict bunch. Without him, mounting resilience would have been impossible, no matter the might of your commanders. This is the building block of all Generals.

    But he wasn't a military commander, was he? So he used his strategists Ten and Mou Ki among others, who were given the power to issue commands. But doesn't this, then, make them the leaders then? Shin was also utilized, for his ability to command his men and lead on the front-lines, kill the enemy and secure victory. No other men could do the job better.


    Coming to your question @TheoryKing .... Why are these the leaders/ generals? Because they stand above the common soldier. They're more competent, simply speaking - militarily superior. They possess the strategic or combative acumen necessary to win large scale conflicts. And they can lead. They can organize and order the troops for the greater good of the state. They possess authority earned through experience in battle. In short, they're the people most trusted to accomplish the desired objectives.

    Without Sei's alliance making ability Yo Tan Wa would have never showed up to secure the win, which she did through overwhelming military might. Same with Riboku's coalition, achieved through leadership.


    So for me, military leadership includes all aspects of possessing command, decisions made on the battlefield. The General is the mastermind behind warfare. El Sei and the kings before him may be great leaders, but first they have to rise through the ranks of great soldiers, which is something you do through being able to win battles.... be it through marital might, strategic might or whatever makes white flags dot the sky.


    But if you're talking about "just" leadership ability... which is what you described as caring for your soldiers.... well that might well be not nearly enough. My argument was that leading in itself is part of your individual might. By making any decision on the battlefield, as a commander, you're essentially 'leading'. They're not separated in my mind, that's why I want clear cut definition to avoid cyclical semantics debates.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2016
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  3. TheoryKing

    TheoryKing

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    ^^^^^^

    Leadership ability -is pretty much for me management/caring/understanding/handling your troops properly.
    Individual might - prowess of the individual him/herself brains + brawns

    I assume its better to give out the actual full scope of the argument that this entire thing is based around. Though the OP made the thread on simply "becoming a general", my actual posts regarding the Great Generals/General were towards Shin becoming the Strongest Great General under the heavens. And differentiating between the generals and the Great Generals under the heavens.

    "However, what differentiates between a General and the Great General under the heavens is INDIVIDUAL MIGHT. "


    No matter however much a good leadership Shin possesses, he will never become the strongest Great general under the heavens. Unless he himself is a superior individual to Kyoukai. Meaning his instincts are superior to her strategies, his combat prowess is superior to hers. Why do i say this? Because of the following reason:


    - If Kyoukai is made into a Great General along with Shin, the fact shes under Shin will be irrelevant. She will be renowned throughout china for her own individual prowess as one of the Great Generals. And the fact shes superior to Shin in tactics and combat prowess will also be spread throughout china. Thus busting open Shin's dream of becoming the strongest of the Great Generals.


    The core of the person needs to be strong before he/she leads an army. And dependent on their core, their army's strength will become stronger dependent on them as well.


    Now let me even go deeper, and pose onee last question as far as tactics/combat prowess goes.. Is there a single Great General of the Heavens on the level of Riboku/Ouki/Renpa, that is on their level simply due to strategy?


    Sorry if made it more confusing with this post :lmao:
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2016
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  4. Vince

    Vince

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    Great thread and thanks for the tag, OP. I don't want to regurgitate what the posters said above, but I think besides strong fundamental leadership skills, a great general cares, respects, and emphasizes not only his superiors and equals but his/her inferiors/subordinates. It is a difficult for me to explain, but there are a lot of examples in Kingdom exhibited by Shin and others in the story.
     
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  5. BossYimz

    BossYimz

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    My definition of individual might is equal to fight ability alone.

    The reasons for that are simple. To create a distinction from a strategist.

    The other reason is that our argument stemmed from the argument of whether Kyou Kai is stronger than Shin as you pointed out and how that might contradict Shin's dream of being the best.I believe that Kyou Kai being stronger than Shin wouldn't stop him from achieving his dream.
    Why coz his dream requires him to be the best general in the heavens. How he goes about to achieves that title is irrelevant.

    With that being said. I believe individual fighting ability is not the most important trait needed to be a great general or ultimately a great general under the heavens. The reason being is that we have already been shown great generals who rely mostly on strategy to win wars.

    Look at people like Go ho Mei and Rei Ou. They are extremely weak compared to other great generals. People like Moubu would one shot them in a 1vs1 situation. However, their lack of combat ability relative to people like Moubu didn't prevent them from becoming generals. They can still defeat people like Moubu in a war. This is because their ability to lead there men compensates for their lack of individual might when it comes to war.

    I will use a simple example. A single locust cant destroy a farm. However, when you have 10000 locust focused on one goal ie eat they can even destroy a country's worth of food.

    That is what a good leader can do. They can motivate the individuals and turn people who are weak individually into a coordinated and focused unit which can even take out a stronger foe.

    Case in point, Sei. Sei was able to motivate peasants who had never fought in a war and turned them into an army which could hold out against veterans of war. All those people there were weaker than the army they faced but because they were organized they managed to do the impossible.

    1 man with the strength of a hundred men cannot win against an organized army of 50 fodder. So long as the fodder remain organized and focused on the goal of eradicating that single enemy they will eventually win that war.

    Look at the coalition army. They outnumbered the Qin arym by so many people. However, Qin remained organized and focused on the goal of save their families. They eventually won that because they remained focused on that one goal. The coalition army was divided because some wanted to seek individual glory like Kanmei and as such they weren't organized. They lost their advantage in number due to that fact. Each country was seeking its own glory as being the once to defeat Qin.
    The coalition army possesed beasts like Houken, Riboku one who is claimed to be the strongest while the other is claimed to be the best strategist. They still lost even when their individual might and numbers were superior.

    What the Qin accomplished would have been impossible without the leadership skills that their commanders displayed in that war. Moubu, Tou etc managed to rally the men and ensure their morale stayed up. Apart from Moubu, none of the other Qin great generals got to display the individual might fully. What all of them displayed was leadership skill.

    So,ultimately leadership skill is what won the war and not individual might. Yes individual might played a significant role but all would have been lost if the leaders failed to motivate their soldiers and lead them
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 11, 2016, Original Post Date: Jul 11, 2016 ---
    @Byakko Zoro, I agree with you. If we don't agree on the definition of individual might and leadership with regards to the topic it is useless.
    Let me explain where the argument stems from.
    Originally @TheoryKing and I were debating about Kyou kai and Shin's strength. I.e. who was stronger. So I stated that currently Kyou kai is stronger and she will always be stronger or at the very least equal to Shin interns of overall fighting ability. @TheoryKing, argued that Kyou kai being stronger than Shin will contradict his dream of becoming the best.
    This is where I argued that Shin doesn't have to overall be the most skilled fighter. He just has to be the best general there is. The primary task of a general/great general is to lead the army. As such that is what Shin will be the best at. Therefore his goal will be accomplished when there is no person in China who can defeat his army in war. On the battlefield, HSU will be the strongest army under his command.

    Now that that is out of that way, my definition of individual might in this context is fighting ability.While leadership is literally what it implies. How good the person can lead. It is irrelevant how they lead the troops. It can be via strategy, via instinct, via charisma etc. What matter is how effective their leadership ability is relative to the other leaders.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2016
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  6. JOY D BOY

    JOY D BOY

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    Tbh, somehow I feel you're all saying the same thing but from different perspective.
    All things are important but some are more important than the others....lol.
    Ok, individual might: Some Generals like Riboku/Kanki rely on their brains as their might, while others like Moubu/Shihaku rely on their strength as their might....yet few like Ouki/Renpa have both qualities and are way more balanced than others.
    Now, as long as you have that power, people will always follow you to battle and you will always get sent to the field....leadership.
    Your leadership is as a result of your individual might and if you get to lead without a might, you'll fail. Its really gonna be an uphill task if you try to separate them with the label 'most important'.
     
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  7. BossYimz

    BossYimz

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    @TheoryKing, Above you claimed that great generals are stronger than general and they in turn are stronger than the people below them. You mentioned that there are strategic generals whose brains are their individual might. However, for now I will focus on the stuff in bold.

    Let me give you some stats. These stats were made by the author Hara.

    Strength stats:
    The list below is made from the strongest to the weakest. The list will contain the available strength stats of great generals, generals considered to be close to becoming great generals and new generation rising stars.
    1. Ouki: strength - 100 (Great general under the heavens)
    2. Houken: Strength - 100 (Great general)
    3. Moubu: Strength - 99 (Great general)
    4. Kanmei: Strength - 99(Great general)
    5. Gai Mou: Strength - 98 (Great general)
    6. Renpa: strength - 97 (Great general under the heavens)
    7. Kyou kai: strength - 96 +alpha (3000 man commander)
    8. Tou: Strength - 96 (Great general)
    9. Earl Shi: Strength - 96 (Great general)
    10. Dyuke Hyou: Strength - 95 (Great general)
    11. Kyou: Strength - 94 (Great general under the heavens)
    12. Ou Sen: Strength - 94 (General)
    13. Ka Rin: Strength - 94 (Great general)
    14. Ou Hon: Strength - 93 (5000 man commander)
    15. Kanki: Strength - 93 (General)
    16. Gaku ki: Strength - 93 (Great general)
    17. Ordo Strength - 93 (Great general)
    18. Shin: Strength - 91+alpha( 5000 man commander)
    19. Kou Yoku: Strength - 91 (1000 man commander)
    20. Riboku: Strength - 91 (Great general)
    21. Haku Rei: Strength - 90 (1000 man commander)
    22. Geki Shin: Strength - 90 (Great general)
    23. Mouten: Strength - 89 (4000 man commander)
    24. Go kei: Stregngth - 89 (Great general)
    25. Keisha:Strength - 88 (General)
    26. Chou Tou: Strength - 86 (Great general)
    27. Kisui: Strength - 86 (General)
    28. Mougu: Strength - 85 (Great general)
    29. Go Hou Mei: Strength - 60 (Great general)
    30. Rei Ou: Strength - 38 (Great general)
    [Kyou- had the same rank as Ouki. Renpa was known as a great general under the heavens because he could rival the Qin 6. Ouki is also know as a great general under the heavens. As such Kyou is automatically also a great general under the heavens.]

    [In the manga it is stated that had Kanki been born in the era of the Qin 6, he would have counted as part of the Qin 6. Therefore Kanki would have also received the title of great general under the heavens]

    From the list provided above,
    • Kyou kai is stronger than 15 great generals and 1 great general under the heavens(Kyou).
    • Ou hon is stronger than 9 great generals.
    • Moubu, Houken, Kanmei and Gai mou are stronger than 2 great generals under the heavens (Renpa and Kyou).
    • Shin, Mouten, Haku Rei and Koku Yoku are stronger than a couple of great generals.

    Therefore based on what you said i.e individual might is what determine whether someone is a great general/general:
    • Kyou kai's, individual might(strength) is higher than many great generals and even a great general under the heavens, should be a great general under the heavens.
    • Ou hon would also be a great general under the heavens had he been born in the era of Qin 6. His strength is equal to Kanki's.
    • Moubu, Houken, Kanmei and Gai mou should be great generals under the heavens
    • Shin, Mouten, Haku Rei and Koku Yoku should be great generals

    However, Kyou kai, Ou Hon, Moubu, Houken, Kanmei, Gai mou are not great generals under the heavens. Shin, Mouten, Haku Rei and Koku Yoku aren't great generals. The logical conclusion is that individual might is not what makes you a great general under the heavens or a great general or a general.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 11, 2016, Original Post Date: Jul 11, 2016 ---
    Check the first post. Individual might = fighting ability while leadership = leading (The method used by the general/great general to lead is irrelevant. Be it strategy, instincts, charisma etc).
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2016
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  8. Stray_mind

    Stray_mind

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    I don't know about Kingdom, never seen it, but leadership skills are essential for a person who leads. Strenght is important, but if you are a bad leader,nobody will follow you, or rather, nobody will risk their lives for you at will. If you are a bad leader, you will more likely be stabbed in the back someday.

    There are leaders who are not physically strong and everyone still follows them so strenght is not that important. Respect of the ones you lead is more important. Even if you are physically weak, if your mind and spirit are strong, people will respect you and follow you.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2016
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  9. BossYimz

    BossYimz

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    True that.
    You should give kingdom a try. It is awesome
     
  10. JOY D BOY

    JOY D BOY

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    @BossYimz, this is exactly why I said you're both saying same thing from different POVs.
    For TheoryKing, Individual might includes both strength and strategy. While you're only looking at it as strength.
    And basically, what you both are considering as 'leadership' or 'individual might' is ability to win battles.
     
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  11. BossYimz

    BossYimz

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    Technically leadership and fighting ability all fall under individual might. Each person has a different unique ratio of those three. However, in this instance I have separated them. I want to see which of the 2 is more important for a general/great general.
    Like you said, we will probably go in circles until we agree on the context which we define leadership and individual might.
    I already aid down the context we were discussing before we arrived to this debate. As such, that previous debate requires leadership to be separated from fighting ability.
     
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  12. Byakko Zoro

    Byakko Zoro

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    Well, handling your troops is almost a necessity. If Kisui couldn't convince the Keisha commanders to stay and fight (or Kanki to avoid his own troops rebelling and later Shin) then they'd be in the fix of their lives.

    Also, if a leader can inspire his troops to fight three times as fiercely as they would have normally, well... let's just say we get into murky waters here. Also if you got a cunning state-leader/ general such as Riboku being able to convince whole countries to convene together, that'll fuck you up as well.

    But in regular situations, strategy and everything that composites 'individual might' (as per your definition) definitely secure you the win.

    Still, it can be a bit hard to determine just how much the shounen 'believe in yourself' pump up can win you battles against superior numbers/ strategy. inb4 we see a 300 Spartans "FRIENDSHIP POWER UP" fiasco :faceplam:


    As for your question.... strategy alone is often too fickle to win a close battle. Minute decision can shape and change the face of whole battlefield but I'd say a Riboku with strategy alone is pretty damn formidable.


    Yeah I see. I think of leadership the same as you do, so that's why I was confused. You guys better settle on one definition so we can keep the discussion going ;)
     
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  13. TheoryKing

    TheoryKing

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    That didn't answer my question. :p
    "Is there a single Great General of the Heavens on the level of Riboku/Ouki/Renpa, that is on their level simply due to strategy? (as in simply because they're good strategist) "
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 11, 2016, Original Post Date: Jul 11, 2016 ---
    Yes, because as I told you again for the 3rd to 4th time.. a persons brain strength is part of their individual might.. lol. That is their prowess. Individual might is not simply brute strength, it is skills, speed, combat ability, brains in a fight.. and so on. That is individual might.

    Mentioning strength stats is irrelevant due to 1 single fact, individual might is not limited to strength. A fight is not limited to strength.
    If you still wish to continue this argument, than I would highly recommend not using brute strength as individual might, as that is not what I've claimed since the start of this arguement. The first things I mentioned to

    When did 6 Great Generals of Qin = Great Generals under heaven??

    All 6 Great Generals was is a system of 6 people ranked as Great Generals.. Moubu is not recognized as a Great General under the heavens.. despite being a Great General right now. There are only selective people in the manga who have been hyped as that. And those sole 2 were Ouki and Renpa.




    It is again IMPOSSIBLE for Shin to become the STRONGEST general under the heavens.. if he is only equal to or weaker than Kyoukai in combat ability:

    "He is not smarter than her, he is not stronger than her.... Especially if Kyoukai ends up becoming one of the 6 great generals. Then she'll be considered superior to Shin in pretty much everything...."

    ^^^ What I stated.

    "And it makes a nicer sound to say "the leutinent is on the same level as the General." Rather than "the leutinent is stronger and smarter than our captain"... wait then why the fuck is he your captain? "

    ^^^ What I stated before that to another member.. sadly this scenario will be the reality, if a single Hi Shin Unit member is asked about Kyoukai and Shin and their prowess. If Kyoukai is to remain the superior one out of the two, then she deserves to the be the leader period.

    You can make the whole argument of "but its Shin's unit, and so on".. wouldn't matter the fact is Kyoukai is more well equipped to lead. She simply chooses to stay in the back. She is equally good in leading as Shin is, if not better. Just look at how pathetic HSU got without Kyoukai.

    So I will again ask, how is he going to become the Strongest general under the heavens without being stronger than her, since hes not becoming smarter than her.

    PS: Mouten/Ouhon/Kyoukai are all superior to Shin as a Whole. if Shin is going to surpass Mouten and Ouhon, then he will surpass Kyoukai.. otherwise he'll stay inferior to Ouhon and Mouten.. and seeing as how this manga is going with Shin as the biggest rising star of the young generation, thats not going to be the reality. Before you say/go into the whole "plot device" or etc stuff.. just know Kyoukai is stronger than Shin only because the plot right now demands her to be.


    Also can you please tell me what Ouhon was missing to be a general in comparison to Heki as far as leadership goes?
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2016
  14. Byakko Zoro

    Byakko Zoro

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    Not that I recall
     
  15. TheoryKing

    TheoryKing

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    That was my entire point. In order for Shin to be the strongest General under the heavens he must be the strongest in combat ability or smarts. But he if he is in neither, then he cannot be the strongest great general. Since all of the top 5-10 generals are all strong warriors, that are smart as hell (even moubu, who was seen as a mere brute is very smart). Does the strongest mean who can get the most wins?? Because wins don't solely depend on a General as you already know. So what makes a better general? Would it not be his smarts and combat ability?

    If there was a general free agency, would people not go for the those who are the smartest and are the best in combat ability?

    Would Shin even be considered for General if his combat prowess was that of a fodder? If he is made into a Great General, and then instantly is garbage and on the level of a fodder in combat ability, would he still be a Great General ?? And would people still follow him, especially when the main reason shin got people following him is because of his own personal combat prowess. ?

    Because you can't really break down leadership, and who makes a better leader. Is somebody a better leader because he/she achieves better results due to other factors involved that they get lucky in? Or is somebody a better leader because they take care of their troops and look out for the best thing for their people? Is somebody a bad leader if they give up a fight over the safety of their unit, or are they a bad leader if they chose to win over the demise of their unit??



    Renpa's requirements of becoming a Great General:

    - Arm Strength of 100
    - Will power of 100
    - Luck of 100
    - Experience of 100
    - Knowledge of 100
     
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  16. BossYimz

    BossYimz

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    If we combine fighting abillity and strategy as part of individual might then we might as well place leadership as individual might.
    This argument becomes pointless if we do that.

    Ouki = great general under the heavens
    Renpa = great general uder the heavens because he could riva Qin 6
    Kyou = Ouki in terms of rank. Therefore she is automatically a great general under the heavens. Renpa was called that because he could rival Qin 6

    This is how I look at it EoS
    Shin's stats:

    Strength: 100+alpha
    Leadership:99/100 (Riboku's leadership is on 99 btw)
    Knowledge:80~90

    Kyou kai's stats:
    Strength: 100+alpha
    Leadership: 90~99
    Knowledge:100 (Riboku's knowledge is on 100 btw)

    This is how I see it. Their base stats for strength will be 100. Shin will overall be the better leader while Kyou Kai will be smarter. If they are to war, Shin will be able to lead his army better plus he will be just as strong in terms of base stats. Shin's instincts will be able to counter the strategy Kyou kai makes up via her higher knowledge.

    So overall:
    Shin vs Kyou kai Strength will be equal
    Shin vs Kyou kai Leadership: Shin better leader
    Shin vs Kyou kai strategy/instincts: Shin's instincts = Kyou kai strategy

    Winner in war EoS, Shin.
    Shin will still be overall the greatest general there is.
     
  17. TheoryKing

    TheoryKing

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    Since you're resorting to stats, then Kyoukai > Shin in leadership. Then at best he'll only equal her with your logic.

    And sure you can place leadership skill as part of individual might. But in reality leadership is usually a result of characteristics of the person, and not really a skill of that person themselves. And plus, you're the one who made it Brute strength = individual might vs leadership. :p. I never talked about individual might being brute strength.

    Not to mention the fact that leadership skill is only relevant when actually leading something, it is utterly useless to the person if he/she is not a leader. And there is no specific thing that decides what a proper leader is. Hara just put stats on leadership, but there is no actual explanation. Hell I mean you yourself can't give any reason as to why Heki is a better leader than Ouhon. (88 vs 85)

    EOS Great Generals top 4 (in my opinion):

    - Shin
    -Ouhon
    -Kyoukai
    -Mouten

    Mouten and Ouhon are both better in leadership than Heki, and are more intelligent and more stronger.. yet are not Generals.

    ps: Ten is better in leadership than Kyoukai and Shin.



    List of generals below Ouhon in leadership:

    - Rihaki
    -Fuuki
    -Mangoku
    -Maikou
    -GenBou
    -Rinbukun
    -Beiman
    -Goumasho
    - Seikai
    - DoMon
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016
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  18. BLACKBOLT

    BLACKBOLT

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    You guys pretty much explained it. Well done.
    And the answer to to the poll is both. Superb leadership, individual might and achievements, is what's needed to become the greatest general of them all.

    Shin's strength and ability to inspire his army, is already a great quality for a general.
    Becoming a great general and unifying china, will allow him to surpass all the previous great generals under the heavens.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2016
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