Discussion Six Great Generals Discussion

Discussion in 'Kingdom' started by Sammy, Apr 19, 2014.

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  1. TheoryKing

    TheoryKing

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    @BossYimz You have convinced me on that. However, right now Moubu is the strongest China since he beat the man that was recognized as the strongest.

    So if anything at EoS, i think Shin will simply surpass him as that somebody else mentioned earlier.

    Because that man from the HSU is also trying to be the strongest combatant, from his duels with hyou to training against Kyoukai , to proving his might against rinko, to then continuing to try and take on the big dogs in a fight and beat them.

    I have no doubt in my mind that Shin at EoS will be the strongest combatant. Moubu can still be stronger in strength, but he'd lose to Shin in a 1 vs 1.

    Telling you man.. him having a special glaive + special shield + special sword.. is pretty much setting him up for the best fighter at EoS, cause that shits way too lethal and perfect of a combo.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
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  2. BossYimz

    BossYimz

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    I always thought Shin would be the strongest until I went back and saw that Moubu's goal is to be the strongest.
    The one question I always ask myself is why does Hara go through so much trouble if his plan is for Shin to be the strongest EoS:
    • Why did Hara decide to make Moubu proclaim that his goal in life is to prove that he is the strongest. No where in the manga has Shin ever said explicitly that he would become the strongest in China. Why go through all this trouble, making Moubu fight Kanmei, who was recognized as the strongest etc if he has no intention of making Moubu achieve his dream?
    • Hara decided to make Kyou kai say she was aiming for the top of warfare since that was now the path she walked on. She would aim for the GG title and Qin 6 cause that was the top. Hara decided to make Kyou kai stronger than Shin, he also upgraded her boost from the normal alpha boost, to the large alpha boost. She is the only character with that. He decided to give her EoS level strength in the beginning of the manga. On top of that, he also decided to increase her strength along the way to the point where she is among the top 6 strongest fighter in the verse based on know stats. This would have been fine if this was her peak, however she will still grow cause of the strength of the general stuff. The more she achieve the more she will grow when it comes to strength.
    • Why did he decide to make Kyou kia so op? There was no reason whatsoever. Other than the fight with the shiyuu, she has not gone fully all out. In the past, their alpha boost were the same, thus if Shin surpassed her in base, he would still be stronger when they go all out, cause they boosted the same. With the bigger alpha boost that he gave her, Kyou kai will forever be stronger than Shin. Even if we assume Shin in base will surpass Kyou kai, the very fact that she can boost her strength to a higher degree than Shin means that when the go all out, she will be stronger than Shin.
    From a writing point of view this makes no sense. Do all that and then somehow make Shin the strongest EoS. That would have made all this effort a waste of time.

    The fact that Moubu and Kyou kai are still growing and haven't reached their peak despite getting less significant fight than Shin just makes it next to impossible for Shin to realistically surpass them. The only way I would see Shin surpass them in strength would be if Hara kills Moubu or Kyou kai or nerfs them.

    There is also the fact that in history Shin lost to Kouen and SHK. Moubu and Ousen went and defeated them. So, how exactly will Hara realistically make Shin stronger after this incident.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
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  3. Zephyr

    Zephyr

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    That argument doesn't work cause no one knows that it was SHK's strategy.

    Yes, you are basically describing the relation between strategist GG & their martial general that I mentioned earlier.

    Shin gets achievement & recognition cause he is the leader. Otherwise the way Hara had been going he would be nothing but a glorified brute. And it would show clearly as time passes. It would become way too obvious on who actually is the leader of this unit.

    Do you see any other martial general that has a strategist who commands his entire army? You won't cause that would totally overshadow the martial general.

    Ten has already become pretty famous. Everyone knows her. Imagine Ten actually reaching KoShou level, commanding Shin all day long cause he is inferior, can't make strategy & the China realizing that Shin is just Houken to Ten. If you don't see the problem with that then I guess we see the manga way too differently.

    That's why I am pretty grateful about this arc so far. The arrogance that Ten has been developing & dumbing down Shin had reached a point that it was frankly pretty unbearable.

    Hara doesn't need to make Ten obsolete. He just needs to make Shin slowly climb to Duke Hyou's level.

    Ten will continue to grow. But making Ten capable of understanding instinctual general that Riboku has a hard time understanding & Gokei couldn't understand at all isn't the way to go.

    And Hara can go the route of making Ten , KoShou level. That will be a colossal mistake & bad writing.
     
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  4. TheoryKing

    TheoryKing

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    - Well it's pretty much similar to having a middle generation in One piece. Moubu isn't in luffy's generation, but the generaiton that falls in the middle, Ie, Kanki/Ousen/Moubu/Tou/etc. This middle generation will have their own accomplishments. Like, Moubu being the current strongest in China. But he's eventually gonna get surpassed by the upcoming generation that is the main character's generation. Oda introduced Kaido as the strongest, after killing off whitebeard. Does that mean Kaido will stray the strongest until EoS? Nope not really. But nonetheless he went through to establish Kaido being considered the strongest, through various statements. So similarly in the Coalition Arc, Hara set up Moubu as the strongest general in China.

    - Hara made Kyoukai stronger than Shin from the start. And in order to justify it, he gave her a backstory that involved around the fact she was trained and hammered down in training to be a strong combatant. While on the other hand, he gave Shin a background that involved no actual training, but him instead growing and evolving as he continues to experience more battle. And while doing that, throughout the manga he constantly has made sure to highlight the fact that Shin continues to grow in combat prowess. Where as for Kyoukai, shes only ever had 1 "in battle" growth moment, which was against the Shiyuu.

    So her being surpassed is an eventually inevitable thing. Because he's portrayed Shin having the most potential. Kyoukai simply had a big head start, while Shin will eventually get on her level and surpass her, and we already see this from their duels whenever they're shown. That Shin is catching up.

    - Well because of the same reason Kishi had Naruto & Sasuke on same team, and had Sasuke stronger than Naruto up until the final war where he surpassed him in skills/power/etc. So Kyoukai being stronger than Shin from the start is completely justified due to their backstories. Just like Mouten/Ouhon being better than Shin before the renpa arc was completely justified as well, but he's caught up / on level of those 2. And simply needs to now surpass Kyoukai in combat prowess.

    There doesn't need to be a big reason, other than Shin having somebody who'll be on par with him on his squad + giving him a "rival" or so in combat prowess that he'll keep constantly practicing with and such.



    Moubu is pretty much reached his peak at that Kanmei battle, since he's now the strongest in China in combat prowess, and without any par the strongest on the offense side of warfare in Qin (something pointed out to us in the manga). Shin is continuing to make the gap between him and Kyoukai closer, so this is just a wait on time.


    -> Kyoukai = not the highest potential, will hit her peak before Shin, and her peak will be lesser than Shin's.
    -> Shin = Highest potential in the manga, hence why SHK wanted him the most. Will hit his peak after Kyoukai, and will have a higher peak or the same peak at worst.


    So it really wouldn't be bad writing, but pretty unique one in specifically when it comes to Kyoukai-Shin. Moubu won't be any different than Luffy surpassing the middle generation of one piece.

    ----

    Well Shin only lost the battle due to SHK having an advantage that Shin couldn't/wouldn't have been able to foretell in a 200k vs 500k battle + bad weather as well. He never lost to SHK & Kounen in a duel, but in a war where they had the better numbers + advantages. Ousen & Moubu beat em with superior numbers and etc. And if I recall right, Shin has a campaign after that Chu defeat, where he conquers a state by himself (or was it with Ouhon), so if Shin's rep does take a hit then that's where he can be redeemed (especially since he's supposed to lose a lot of his core men against the Chu).
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
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  5. BossYimz

    BossYimz

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    I would have agreed with you about the generational thing if Moubu was not a protagonist and if he wouldn't make it till EoS.

    The fact that he will make it till EoS will make it next to impossible for Hara not to make him achieve his goal. As long as Moubu is alive, his goal in life is to love he is the strongest.
    Kaido is a villian Thu he can be defeated. Moubu is not a villain and from the looks of things will go undefeated till EoS thus making him the undisputed strongest in China

    Hara made Kyou Kai stronger in the beginning but never released her stats. There was no reason to make her EoS strong from the get go.
    I don't see how Hara will realistically make Shin surpass Kyou Kai without killing her off or nerfing her. She is still growing as a character. There is also the fact that with her new boost, she can gain power that even surpasses that of Houken. The shiyuu and Houken, sacrificed their emotions for power.

    The Naruto vs Sasuke example didn't work. Reason being is that throught out the series, they switched between who was stronger. In the beginning it was Sasuke, after Naruto learnt rasengan it was him, after Sasuke got the weird powers from Orochimaru, it was him, after Naruto learnt sage mode, it was him, after Sasuke got his brothers eyes, it was him, after Naruto learnt to control the nine tails, it was him, then at the end, they tied. So EoS they were equal in strength EoS

    With Shin and Kyou Kai, she has always been stronger.

    We will just have to wait and see how Hara goes about this.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
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  6. TheoryKing

    TheoryKing

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    Issue is he isn't a protagonist, he's a side character. And him making it to EoS has nothing to do with getting surpassed or not. And Moubu has already achieved his goal, since he's the strongest right now. However, that's also one of Shin's goals so who takes precedent?? A side character or the main character?


    - Idk why he can't, when he's already established that Kyoukai is solely stronger than Shin because she had proper training in combat. While Shin has the most potential out of the current generation and will be growing stronger and stronger as he fights more. Hence why he's the one Hara is throwing into battles of big difficulty and not Kyoukai. She can attain a power that surpasses even Houken. But Shin will have a power that surpasses Ouki, and we know Ouki > Houken in a fight.


    - They actually didn't switch tho if you're talking about simply their own prowess. Sasuke was the strongest on his own, while Naruto didn't become the "strongest" on his own until he finally gained control of the Kyuubi. Before that the only way he was ever stronger than Sasuke was getting help from kyuubi, while losing his own self. So it wasn't until he controlled the kyuubi that it was officially recognized as "his power". And after he got control of the kyuubi, they never switched back and forth. After that it was set in stone, Naruto being the stronger one. (And they only tied at the end, because Naruto chose to make it a tie, unlike his predecessor Hashirama who didn't have the power to make it a tie but was forced to kill of Madara. Both Hashirama / Naruto held back in their fights against their opponents in their VOTE fights.) buttt leaving this alone tho. xD


    - With Shin & Kyoukai, their gap is becoming smaller and smaller. If that gap wasn't decreasing, your point would be sustainable in regards to her keeping on being the stronger one. But Shin is closing that gap as he gets more experienced, thus making up for the training he missed, that Ouhon/Mouten/Kyoukai all got before starting their military ventures.



    Ahaha yea, it can go anyway really.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
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  7. Pika

    Pika

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    I agree , Shin will be the strongest eos. The strongest glaive , the strongest sword , the strongest shield annnndd the strongest armor(Ou Sen armor). :steef::wipesweat:
     
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  8. Zephyr

    Zephyr

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    I think Hara wil give Shin different armour when he becomes GG than the one he showed in chapter 1.

    The story wasn't that fleshed out in chapter 1 and now that Ousen is wearing a similar armour there isn't any reason for Shin to wear the same armour.

    Even OuKi despite being a member of Ou family didn't wear armour that resembled Ousen's.

    I personally also don't want Shin to wear that armour anymore.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
  9. BossYimz

    BossYimz

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    I wouldn't call Moubu a side character. He is an important character to the unification. Without him we know unification will be impossible. He will also be in Qin 6 with power to wage war independently. If that isn't the definition of a protagonist then I don't. know what is. Bihei is a side character, a person that the story can do without. There presence just adds flavour to the story. Moubu is someone the story can't do without.


    We were told that Kyou kai had the highest talent when it came to the priestess dance. She could go deeper than any other person could and depth = strength when it comes to the priestess dance. If training was all that separated the 2, then the fact that she has trained Shin for 10 years, should have made Shin surpass him by now. There is also the fact that since Kyou kai's introduction, she was no longer training with her clan. There is also the fact that she has continued to grow despite getting less fights than Shin. Then on top of that, the author upgraded her boost from normal alpha to large alpha. That is higher than even Shin's. At age 12, Kyou kai was stronger than Shin/Ou hon/Mouten are at age 23 (11 year age gap, with 23 year old Shin, Ou hon and Mouten getting experience on the battlefield fighting general, great general.) (Mouten and Ou hon who also received training from veterans of warfare.) At age 12, Kyou kai was stronger than all the new gen guys at their present age. The new gen include: Shin, Ou hon, Mou ten, Kou Yoku, Fu tei, Kaine, Haku rei. Despite all this evidence you say the only reason she was strong is because of training and not because she actually had exceptional talent when it comes to fighting.

    Let me reword this:
    1. Kyou kia has been personally training Shin for around 10 year
    2. Shin has fought against Houken(100), Renpa(97), Gaimon(98) all of them stronger than 22 year old Kyou kai (96) who is stronger than 12 year old Kyou kai (94)
    3. Shin has been on the battlefield and has survived numerous battles for around 10 years.
    Despite all these, 23 year old Shin (91), is still weaker than 12 year old Kyou kai (94). However, 12 year old Kyou kai is only stronger than Shin because she got training while 23 year old Shin did not get any training?
    Even is we assume 12 year old Kyou kai started training at age 2 (an unrealistic age but we will go with it) , 23 year old Shin has gotten more training and experience than 12 year old Kyou kai, but he is still weaker than her.

    You example with Houken and Ouki would have worked if Kyou kai never entered the army. Ouki was defeating Houken because of the "weight" of a general i.e. the strength of a general. Kyou kai's goal is to reach the top of warfare by becoming GG and Qin 6. So Kyou kai will also get the strength of general/ "weight" of a general. It is a power up that all generals get. So it won't be unique to Shin/Ouki. So the Ouki vs Houken example won't work in this case.

    Naruto and Sasuke switched positions several times. After the chunin exams, Naruto and Sasuke fought and both their attacks landed on the water tank. It was then shown that Naruto's rasengan did more damage than Sasuke's chidori. After Sasuke saw this, he was surprised and it was implied Naruto was stronger. After Sasuke got the weird power from Orochimaru, Naruto and Sasuke fought under the waterfall and Naruto was defeated, thus it was shown that Sasuke was stronger. After Naruto defeated pain, Zangetsu/someone in akatsuki implied that Naruto was stronger than Sasuke. After this, Sasuke went and got the eye surgery. After this, he went and raided the kage meeting and was implied to be stronger than Naruto. After this, Naruto went and trained to control the kyubi and then defeated the raikage. At this point, they were more or less equals. In their final fight, they tied. So there are multiple times in the manga where they switched positions between who was stronger.


    It is obvious that the gap would be decreasing. The max strength stat is 100. Kyou kai is already @ 96 while Shin is @ 91. It would be surprising if the gap was increasing coz that would imply Shin was regressing/staying stagnant while Kyou kai is increasing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
  10. KakumeikaPeri

    KakumeikaPeri

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    But based on you analysis, doesn't it actually elaborate shin having a better progression and growth than kyou kai thus possessing the attribute to inevitably surpass her

    Kyoukai strength beginning of series is 94 compared to Shin's 80

    After 10 years of training and experiences Kyoukai has an increased strength of just 2 making her 96 excluding the large alpha boost. Whereas in Shin's case he has increased by 11 making him 91.

    Unless my math is floored, I don't comprehend how 2 is superior to 11....do you?
     
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  11. TheoryKing

    TheoryKing

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    - She didn't train Shin for 10 years, she gave him tips while sparring with him like Hyou did. There's a vast difference in being trained in a specific martial arts like Kyoukai was or like how Ouhon was vs simply sparring.

    - Shin changed martial art forms. First he was solely sword reliant, then he became a glaive user, keeping up with mastery of both, and now he's using the ultimate glaive which is even harder than a normal glaive. Which is also pretty much on his own to master, rather than being formally trained.

    - Kyoukai entered the series being trained, thus the 94. Shin entered the series without any training, thus the 80. Over the span of 10 years, Shin grew by 11 points. Kyoukai grew by 2, did she stop training? no. So we already see who has the better potential.

    - Ouhon & Shin fight against Rinko, Shin's potential is the one that gets highlighted

    - SHK knows of both Shin & Kyoukai & Ouhon (who has a 93 compared to Shin's 91), Shin is the one he wants/ed the most.

    - Actually it would, because Houken was a general was as well but didn't automatically get a power up like that. While all experienced generals will probably have that powerup, it doesn't mean they'll have it to the extent Ouki did & Shin will. Shin has been leading for far longer period than Kyoukai and leading a bigger army than any of his other peers, thus automatically has more weight than the rest of his generation. So unless there's proof that all generals have the same amount of weight, the Ouki vs Houken should work here.


    Naruto:
    - Rasengan did more damage, because of how the technique works, not because the Chidori was weaker. Chidori was a piercing technique, Rasengan is an inner burst technique. So Rasengan would do more damage in that regards, while Chidori will give Sasuke the higher chances of stabbing through Naruto or anything in general. This was pretty much Sasuke getting jealous at how Naruto was growing, not really implying Naruto was superior to him.

    - Sasuke without the curse mark was superior to Naruto without Kyuubi at VOTE first time. With the kyuubi chakra Naruto was superior even until the end. Sole reason Sasuke won that fight was because, if you recall their last moment with the chidori/rasengan clash, Naruto changed his trajectory of the rasengan from Sasuke's heart to his forehead protector thus scratching it. Which was to go to the whole statement that Sasuke made at beginning of the fight to Naruto stating "you can't even scratch my head band" or something of that sort. So Naruto was the superior one out of the fight if we're including the Curse Mark & Kyuubi Chakra.. But Naruto was superior with it by letting him self go to the Kyuubi. And the Kyuubi doesn't get recognized as his own power until he learned to properly control it. So without the Kyuubi take over effect, Sasuke was the superior ninja in general based on skills not Naruto.

    - When Naruto beat Pain, Tobi/Obito jested at Sasuke that Naruto was potentially stronger than him. But Sasuke showed no care, and went ahead to the Gokage summit to take on the Kages. Where Sasuke proceeded to beat Danzo, take Ay's arm. And then when they clash it was uncertain as to who was stronger, so this was the part where it became vague as to who the stronger one was. After this Sasuke went for the transplant

    - Then Naruto masters the Kyuubi, Sasuke gets the EMS. Naruto is visibly just a superior ninja overall, doing more than Sasuke could. And we see this throughout the Final War, Naruto simply outclassing Sasuke in what he could do, with the sheer prowess he had now achieved as a ninja. More skilled / more power/ more refined/ superior techniques, and etc.

    - Then we skip to the Final battle. Where if you reread (not rewatch, but strictly reread), Naruto never once went on the offense. All he ever did in that fight was match w.e Sasuke threw at him, which is a reference to his statement of "he can endure Sasuke's pain". And that's exactly what he did, but taking on everything Sasuke threw at him, while never throwing anything at Sasuke. Hell, Sasuke then needed to borrow the power of all the 9-tails, that he normally wouldn't have outside of that scenario.. which was then countered by Naruto's own technique of gathering Senjutsu chakra, this showed how big the gap between Sasuke & Naruto truly was. But even after this, all Naruto ever did was counter him, rather than try and overpower him.

    Before before Naruto, the younger brother's descendant had killed the older brother's.. thus continuing the cycle of hatred. Naruto however, chose to take it all and make a tie happen, symbolizing him enduring and taking on that cycle of hatred.

    xD and because there's a panel that implies Naruto was holding back. Similar to the convo with Hashi & madara in their VOTE fight, implying Hashirama was holding back.

    Well idk about that bro. Because Kyoukai only growing 2 points in 10 years sort of implies her becoming stagnant, while Shin growing 11 points implying he's still growing.
     
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  12. BossYimz

    BossYimz

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    The reason Kyou kai only grew 2 points is because she only fought against 2 opponents in the entire series that pushed her to her limit.
    Houken and the Shiyuu. When she did fight the Shiyuu, not only did she increase in strength, her alpha boost also increased.

    She has been in her comfort zone every other time since those fights. You can't grow if you are in your comfort zone

    Anyway, I will ask you again. Why is current Shin still weaker than beginning of story Kyou kai?
    If the growth rate of person A is higher than the growth rate of person B, it will take person A, a shorter time than person B to accomplish the same thing.

    If Shin's growth rate eclipses that of Kyou kai, it should have taken him a shorter time to reach 94 than it did Kyou kai. It has already been 10 years and Shin is still behind 12 year old Kyou kai. By now, Shin should have surpassed 12 year old Kyou kai. It took 12 year old Kyou kai less than 10 years to get to 94 (Realistically speaking, it probably took her less than 8 years because I doubt she started martial arts at the age of 2 or less, at the earliest, she probably started at age 4. That is on average the earliest ago most dojo's will take children to start training for martial arts. I just did a quick search online)
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 27, 2018, Original Post Date: Mar 27, 2018 ---
    • You also realize that Kyou kai is younger than Shin.
    • People will argue that Shin never had proper training as a child which I will agree with.
    • However, 23 year old Shin has no excuse for why he is still weaker than 12 year old Kyou kai
    • Kyou kai only fought 2 people that were stronger than her through out the series, Houken(100) and the shuyuu(95). She increased her strength after those fights. She even increased her alpha boost from the normal to large alpha boost after fighting the shiyuu. other than those fights, Kyou kau has been fighting fodder relatively speaking. Noone was stronger than/ equal to her other than those 2.
    • Shin has fought so many people that were stronger than him through out the series and is still weaker than beginning of story Kyou kai. Shin has fought, Renpa (97), Gaimou (98), Houken (100) etc.
    • Despite all those fights, Shin is still behind beginning of story Kyou kai
    Your math is correct but let us look at this while taking into account the number of years it took them to increase in strength and how much they increased by overall.
    • Kyou kai went from 0 to 94 in 12 years. Kyou kai increased by 94 in 12 years.
    • Shin went from 0 to 80 in 13 years. Shin increased by 80 in 10 years.
    • Kyou kai went from 94 to 96 in 10 years. Kyou kai increased by 2 in 10 years.
    • Shin went from 80 to 91 in 10 years. Shin increased by 11 in 12 years.
    • Kyou kai went from 0 to 96 in 22 years. Kyou kai increased by 96 in 22 years.
    • Shin went from 0 to 91 in 23 years. Shin increased by 91 in 23 years.
    • Now, tell me, which is more impressive.

    During the time she increased a lot, she was being trained by her master, sister etc.
    Currently, Kyou kai has no person training her, she is training herself. She also doesn't get many fights against people that are stronger than her.
    Currently, Shin has been receiving training from Kyou kai and has also been getting training in the form of fighting many people that were stronger than him.

    There is also the fact that the growth rate decreases the close they get to 100.The growth rate is a logarithmic function. It starts fast then slows down the closer you get to 100 and levels off at 100.

    Shin went from 0 to 80 in 13 years. He increased by 80 in 13 years.
    Shin went from 80 to 91 in 10 years. He increased by 11 in 10 years.
    Shin's growth while sparring with Hyou when young, surpasses his growth rate while he is receiving proper training.
    Unless you want to tell me Shin got better training while sparring with Hyou than by fighting against the likes of Houken etc, it is obvious that his growth rate was faster when he was young and when he was far from 100.

    Same this happens with Kyou kai:
    Kyou kai went from 0 to 94 in 12 years. She increased by 94 in 12 years.
    Kyou kai went from 94 to 96 in 10 years. She increased by 2 in 10 years.
    Kyou kai's growth rate while young surpasses her growth rate when she is older.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
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  13. Pika

    Pika

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    Btw do you guys think after this war we are gon to see more interactions between Ou Sen and Shin ?
    In the first chapter Shin's armor it's similar to Ou Sen's(face on the armor).
    I expect the leader of qin 6 (Ou Sen) to be in good terms with the strongest/greatest member of qin 6(Shin)
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
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  14. TheoryKing

    TheoryKing

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    I think we will.

    The fact that Ousen held the HSU for last seems to make me think he has a special eye for Shin. And not only that, I think they'll make a bond where Ousen influences Shin more so than even the Duke & Ouki.


    I hope we get more interactions between these 2, badasses to the max. Shin is also the only one out of the big 3 who we don't know what Ousen thinks of him. While we have a firm idea on what he thinks of Mouten & and an implied idea on what he thinks of Ouhon.
     
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  15. Zephyr

    Zephyr

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    I had some free time. Though I am going to not argue Ten's level by EoS here as I said lets agree to disagree on that.

    Even if we take Riboku's self grandiose as face value that only applies to Riboku. Cause as we know Wei 7FD Gokei (intelligence level 97) couldn't read Duke.

    Also Riboku also stated that Duke was a instinctual general on a level that he can't comprehend.

    We don't really need to. Gokei vs Duke was enough. Hara is actually pretty detailed when he writes war scenario. He gives same level of spotlight to both sides.

    Shin was falling for easy faints and such just one year ago. Now he can understand faints & such easily. He didn't have general level instinctual capability before but now he has.

    No one said Ten would stop growing.

    My comment referred to the fact that Shin is instinctual type & Ten is strategical while Renpa is both strategical+instinctual. That's why I said Shin+Ten = Renpa.

    And Shin+Ten>Renpa was in context of that they would surpass Renpa come EoS.

    • Shin >> Renpa in instinct. If Shin goes against Renpa alone (without Ten) he would still lose 6/10 battles.
    • Ten won't surpass or be on the same level as Renpa.
    • But together >> Renpa.

    She really doesn't.

    The subtle change, starting fire, realizing your opponents faints don't really clash with instinctual types in the battle.

    -I don't think Shin will be the greatest by EoS individually but HSU will be the greatest. A GG isn't a one man show. You need strong subordinates as well.
    -He will be on the same level as them without Ten but above them with Ten & KyouKai.
    -Duke isn't inferior to OuKi.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
  16. TheoryKing

    TheoryKing

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    Except the issue is she didn't grow when she fought Houken, despite being pushed to the max. She only grew in that circumstance when she fought against the Shiyuu. And that's mainly because unlike shin doesn't have the "grow under big fights" thing, but instead has strength based on solid training. Where as Shin similar to luffy in one piece, needs those big fights in order to grow. So the mangaka will only give Kyoukai fights that'll either showcase her full prowess or that'll actually make her grow. And so far only 1 of the 2 fights did.


    Hmm Kyoukai & Shin have barely a year between each other.. lol. Age would only hold relevance if she was like Karyo Ten, and had a pretty big gap between the her and Shin.


    You're underestimating what legit training does for Kyoukai.



    - Kyoukai was trained as a solid soldier since she was a child, with training harsh as all hell. 13 year old Kyoukai got the 94 due to the harsh training she received in her martial arts and from the techniques unique to that specific martial art. And not only that.. she is specifically a swordsman and nothing else but a swordsman.

    -> has a martial art, to build up on
    -> has stuck with one form of fighting and weapon
    -> has been trained much more than Shin
    -> was raised as a killer since childhood


    VS

    - Shin who's training was swinging wooden swords against another kid, both of them not knowing any sort of martial arts.. but simply relying on themselves and their strength. Not only that, he has no specific martial arts to rely on or to build upon.. he doesn't have a specific weapon to train with.. But instead has switched weapons 3 times in the series, you don't think that hinders somebody's growth? lol.

    -> has no martial art, to build up on
    -> has switched forms of fighting and weapons throughout the series
    -> has never had legit training..even until now
    -> was raised a slave who sparred against another kid in his free time


    ------------------------------

    Shin from 0-13: 80

    - focused on sparring
    - body is developing and maturing
    - focused on 1 specific martial style


    Kyoukai for 0-12: 94

    - trained as a killer
    - body is developing and maturing
    - focused on 1 specific martial form, with masters there to teach her, lethal techniques



    So kyoukai had 100x better training + better circumstances for a fighter + probably even better nourishment.

    And the gap between them is 14.. While Kyoukai having the clear advantage in opportunity and training.

    Sole reason they have a 80 vs 94 growth here is because of the sheer fact human body has the biggest most dramatic growth from when somebody is a baby to their teens.. so.. you'd automatically expect there to be a huge growth, unless you're expecting a baby to have base stats of 80 or something ya know.


    ---------------------------------

    Shin from 13-23: 11

    - Body has started stabilizing and not developing at a high rate as the first 13 years
    - He still hasn't gotten legit martial arts training.. but still relies on sparring with somebody, in this case instead of Hyou it's now Kyoukai, who's martial art style is vastly different from Shin's..
    - He's switched up his martial art styles, so instead of focusing on 1 specific one he has multiple now, automatically effecting his growth.
    - He's only grown via big fights, as they help him make up for the lack of training by pushing him to the max and unlocking his potential


    Kyoukai from 12-22: 2

    - Still has her martial arts form to rely on, advantage
    - Still has normal nourishment, same as shin
    - Hasn't switched any style, but instead continues to build upon the one she has, advantage
    - Has somebody formidable to spar with, same as Shin



    So Shin still hasn't received proper martial arts training that Kyoukai received, who's techniques allowed Kyoukai to hit 94 .. He has switched fighting styles and combat forms on which to master over the course of the manga hindering his growth compared to if he had just focused on 1 specific one, but something that'll be good in the long term.

    -------------------------------------



    So why is Shin not as strong as the 12 year old kyoukai in base? Because he still to this day doesn't have a martial arts style to build upon like Kyoukai, who has one of the most lethal martial arts drilled into her since she was a child.


    Shin doesn't receive training from Kyoukai, he gets mere tips that are essential to basics of combat. Traning in martial arts would is something Kyoukai can't give to Shin unless he decides to follow Kyoukai's path.. unless Kyoukai knows how to wield glaives..
     
  17. BossYimz

    BossYimz

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    i will get back to you on the 1st.
    Right now I don't have access to fast internet coz it is being throttled.
    I will bring panels that show Kyou kai has not only been sparring with Shin but also being training him on how to fight.
     
  18. TheoryKing

    TheoryKing

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    Shes only given him tips on the basics of combat. In specific regarding how to deal with somebody who is faster.

    Outside of that they've just sparred normally.


    Kyoukai cant train shin, unless she knows how to use or work a glaive, something she has shown no skill in.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 29, 2018, Original Post Date: Mar 28, 2018 ---

    --

    Shin will surpass Ouki, thus will be the most power of the 6 Generals. And the prowess a general isn't really determined by the military under him, otherwise Mougou would've been Qin 6 level with having Kanki & Ousen under him. But It's the actual general's prowess that determines whether he or she is the greatest/strongest/most powerful.
    [​IMG]


    Shin wanting to be the strongest:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2018
  19. Guan_Yu

    Guan_Yu

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    The new Qin Six that i wish for:
    Shin
    Kyoukai
    Ouhon
    Mouten
    Yotanwa
    Kanki
     
  20. KakumeikaPeri

    KakumeikaPeri

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    I find it completely ludicrous that 4 of the six's seat will go to 2 sets of father and son (Mou & Ou families), that would give them to much power in the series.

    Personally don't really see Mou ten making the cut primarily because he is definitely the less enthusiastic among the new gen guys about joining.

    The only way I see kyou kai stand any chance of getting in is if she leaves shin which is no way in hell happening because other than the fact that it will bear so much resemblance to Ouki and Kyou's story (which is just to cliche), it will kinda make the series predictable which is bad because everyone knows the worth of a good story lies in it's suspense.

    For those of us thinking that there will be continuous changes in the seats like 'when tou or moubu dies, kyou kai would take his place or when kanki dies mouten would, keep in mind I am in no way blemishing your opinions but in my opinion, that concept would kinda diminish the value and prestige of being a Qin six if they keep killing of major characters and replacing them to suit our expectations (take for instance the shichibukai status for those of us whom follow One piece) plus with the kind of foreshadowing and hype, there's no way in hell either moubu or tou is dying :p

    Also I'm sure we can all agree that after the current arc, Ou Sen will be promoted to GG based on the fact that Tou was for achieving less, which means as it stands there are three spots left to fill.

    So based on these theories I would say eos six:

    Moubu
    Tou
    Ousen
    Tanwa/kanki (cant decide)
    Ouhon
    Shin
     
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