Relations & Backstories Rivalries become redundant. Luffy vs Smoker; Zoro vs Sanji

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  1. tssr

    tssr

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    I would like to bring a broader perspective into notice than just the usual zoro vs sanji stuff... about the entire depiction & fate of rivalries .

    Before the Dressrosa,PH arcs many people throughtout several one piece communities believed that smoker is to luffy what garp was to roger.

    Today when looking back at all fights & feats that Luffy has done in NW , the prospect of smoker ever even hoping to match luffy is laughable (remember Luffy>=katakuri>DD>>>Smoker.) but even before PH arc many people refused to believe that.
    Back then some used to argue that it's just Smoker's intangibility due to being logia that's keeping the advantage but the former opinion was quite popular in those times.

    What i am trying to imply is that:-
    1) Oda has clearly shown through Smoker vs Luffy that rivalry in One Piece need not be a from the start to end full series thing. One of the 2 of the rivals can go through far more progress & leave the other in dust.
    (a minute of silence for those who think aokiji will train smoker to make him cover the gap...yes i have seen such theories lol)

    & the reason is simple:-
    Luffy has been through far bigger challenges & pushed himself to his limit & even beyond his limit far more no. of times than smoker
    even from the Paradise days...(Luffy vs Lucci, Thriller bark grind, Impel Down, MF,& vs DD,Cracker,katakuri).

    2) Similarly Zoro and Sanji need not stay rivals forever (as it is beginning to happen already but will become far more clear by the end of wano arc). Here is why:-
    a) Zoro even back in the Paradise pulled feats far more than sanji
    (i) He fought & defeated arguably the second strongest opponent in Ennies Lobby saga.(>Sanji but not by far)
    (ii)He was the last man fighting Kuma & went on to take in all off Luffy's damage (>far greater feat than sanji & arguably a bit above even luffy just for this arc).
    ^^As you can see him pulling off much better feats even back then in paradise is an indication of beginning of widening of gap between the 2.
    b) Zoro trained with the World's strongest swordsman while sanji must have also been training but he also had to focus on improving his cooking skills while Zoro was full time training.

    c)Now in NW:-
    (i)Compare the DD vs Sanji portrayal to Fujitora vs Zoro portrayal (No i am not saying Zoro is near Admiral lvl)
    Sanji needed Law's help to get bailed out of DD's grip but Zoro bailed out from Fujitora's grip on his own & keep in mind Fujitora is far stronger than DD (See the hints by oda)


    (ii)Zoro didn't have the option to dodge while fighting hawkins coz else the nails would have hit Otama.He was handicapped from the get go coz of this & yet he took out 2 of hawkin's lives in the process .

    3) Following up from 2) what i am saying is that even without showing his strongest preTS moves like Asura,wearing his badana,using all of his three swords, Zoro has not broken any sweat in NW so far. Be it him vs pica or vs Hawkins, he is far from going all out & this doesn't even include what new stronger moves he must have learnt during TS.

    Conclusion:- Zoro vs Sanji is heading in the same direction as Luffy vs Smoker & as Oda has clearly shown with the latter that rivalries need not be a permanent thing .
    (except for those who want to ignore all the hints, even they are in for a rude awakening by the end of this arc coz by that time zoro would have gone all out & the difference would become even clearer).


    One last thing (especially for anyone who thinks i am hating on sanji):-
    First off i dont hate sanji. If thats how this thread came to be for you then i can tell you atleast about my opinion that i dont have any hate towards his character. I do hate charcaters like monosuke, dwarfs, crying kids of PH not Sanji or any SH for that matter.
    All SH characters (including sanji obviously) are fun to watch & pleasently unique in their own way.
    In fact i like most of the OP characters.

    What i dont like though is exaggerated powergrading of any character for that matter be it Sanji,Akainu,BB, Admirals or even Luffy.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
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  2. Salah Eddine

    Salah Eddine

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    Zoro & Sanji has never being Rivals, don't know how you decide such things, yelling at each other and standing behind Luffy doesn't mean they are Rivals lol
     
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  3. tssr

    tssr

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    I do agree (strength wise they have not been )but i have seen many people on plenty of forums think otherwise & i cant help but agree on this part (with those people )that atleast the portrayal has been of such kind in some instances (where i differ from them is that those people start to extrapolate this portrayal into strength rivalry.)
     
  4. Salah Eddine

    Salah Eddine

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    It's obvious there is some kind of Rivalry between them, but it's not Strength, it's just a Gag
    Those people say Zoro = Sanji simply because they stand together, or fight together or yell at each other but why don't they consider Luffy & Zoro Rivals ?!!
    • Both their Bounties show Ussop behind them
    • Both have Eye Scar and Chest Scar (Even Oda made a mistake and switched Scars once !!!)
    • Both were trained by Legendary Swordsmen
    • The ones they want to surpass are Rivals
    • Both are members of Eleven Supernova/Worst Generation
    • Fought Equally in Whiskey Peak
    • In Marines we have Koby & Hellmepo, Smoker & Tashigi
    • We also have Crocodile & Daz Bones, Lucci & Kaku ... etc
    • Both attacked same CD (One succeeded, one didn't)
    • Many Characters are surprised how Zoro isn't Captain (Chinjao Family, Baroque Works, Loguetown, Some Supernova, Franky Family)
    • Monet said the exact same thing to both Luffy & Zoro "I know i can't defeat you"
    • In Water 7, Luffy & Zoro performed the same actions for an Entire Manga Volume
    • They fought together countless times
    • They were compared together in countless times
    • Luffy had a Draw with Wiper & Zoro fought him Equally and matched him
    • Only these Two got a Bounty after Alabasta, both were greater than Bellamy's Bounty
    • We have Roger & Rayleigh to mirror them
    • In Databook it was mentioned: "Zoro is as strong as Luffy and deserve to be Vice Captain"
    • Even in Non Canon Material, Luffy & Zoro are considered Rivals like punching each other in Alabasta and fighting equally in Movie
    • Lucci & Kaku being the only ones who needed to get carried after Ennies Lobby

    I mean c'mon, are all of these and much more, Coincidence ?!! i'm not asking Sanji fans to say Zoro is Luffy's Rival, i understand that they first need to see him in a serious fight and i respect that, but to say Zoro & Sanji are Equals because they shout at each other, and ignore everything between Luffy & Zoro is Stupid
     
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  5. Den_Den_Mushi

    Den_Den_Mushi

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    Rivalries in One Piece are strange things. On one hand you have Moria and Kaido, where one 'rival' simply does not give a shit about the other. It's a one-sided animosity with one side constantly trying to play catch up. This appears to be where Oda is heading for Zoro/Sanji and Smoker/Luffy. You could even argue this for Luffy/Kid seeing as Luffy is currently acknowledged as an emperor while Kid has yet to defeat a YC or even accomplish anything major to disrupt the balance of the world.

    On the other hand you have rivalries like Garp/Roger, Roger/Whitebeard and Shanks/Mihawk where both parties have much greater respect for each other and Oda frequently brings up their relationship in the story. Given the whole theme of inherited will, I suspect Coby will be Luffy's marine rival, representing moral justice and a driving force for reform within the marines.
     
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  6. vikas

    vikas

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    odas rivalry writing is shit just like his character writing. No need to make excuses for him.
     
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  7. Beerbottle

    Beerbottle

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    That might be.. Though I feel like Oda had neglected Coby somewhat too long. He really should be reintroduced more often so it can end up feeling more authentic
     
  8. Shanks You

    Shanks You

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    Monster trio is canon. Smoker/luffy rivalry is not.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
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  9. Den_Den_Mushi

    Den_Den_Mushi

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    I agree. Rivalries in One Piece generally suffer from a lack of ‘show don’t tell’. At the same time it’s clear that Oda views certain rivalries as far more equal than others and portraying them as such in the story. Kaku and Jabra for example were more a gag than anything else, with Jabra not wanting Kaku to eat a Devil Fruit due to his own insecurity. You would never see Mihawk saying that about Shanks, for example or Whitebeard behaving that way towards Roger.
     
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  10. Grumpy Zoro

    Grumpy Zoro

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    All jokes aside I DO think Zoro and Sanji have a rivalry going on. I just don't think it's just about strength. They would wanna one up another be it a peeing contest or playing Fortnite.
     
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  11. vikas

    vikas

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    thing the only time oda shows their rivalry is with bounty and its always sanji starting something...its no different than kaku and jabra tbh...lame rivalry for comedy.
     
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  12. Beerbottle

    Beerbottle

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    You know.. One problem in all this, is the fact that we have only heard the idolized version about the Roger and Garp, Whitebeard and Roger rivalry.. We have yet to see them go at it.. So when we see the large disparity between Luffy and his "rivals" it just doesn't live up to the uncertainty a Roger and Garp fight was reputed to have..
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
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  13. Bakura

    Bakura

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    fixed
    [​IMG]
     
  14. tssr

    tssr

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    M3 is cannon. But my point is (although i haven't discussed about m3 in my post but with the m3 as well ) that M3 also has the possibility of being redundant or renewed (once jinbei joins that is).

    If M3 is strongest 3 SH then the old M3 will become redundant coz then it would be Luffy Zoro Jinbei.
    If new M3 is strongest other than captain then Sanji will still stay a part of it (Zoro Jinbei Sanji).

    What i am saying is its not a permanent affair either & is subject to change (which seems increasingly likely to be the case as of now be it Zoro sanji rivalry,M3 or Luffy Smoker rivalry etc).
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
  15. Shanks You

    Shanks You

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    No, I meant luffy Sanji and zoro being the monster trio is canon.
     
  16. vikas

    vikas

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    but they were called monster trio because they were not normal humans...i.e pretty strong...After Franky joined that too stopped.
     
  17. tssr

    tssr

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    Yes it is. But my point is even if it was/is cannon at certain point of time , it is could change in future & need not stay that way always.

    Once Jinbei joins, (if need for a combo attack arises to be)
    I cannot imagine Jinebi being excluded from combo attacks of Luffy Zoro Sanji in future. I mean strongest ,2nd strongest & 4th strongest are attacking but not the third strongest ?!!

    Not that M3 has changed as of now or it is not cannon but that somethings can change & are not a permanent set in stone right until the end of series thing.
     
  18. Shanks You

    Shanks You

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    To start with, it's an assumption that Jinbe is third strongest. Maybe he is strongest or maybe second strongest. Or fourth strongest. Regardless, jinbei hasn't joined yet, has he? Currently, zoro, luffy and Sanji is the canon Monster trio. When Jinbei joins, we can evaluate if monster trio is affected in anyway.
     
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  19. Rero

    Rero

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    Comparing Zoro&Sanji rivalry to Luffy and Smoker is sooooo weird??
    I didn't even know there was a rivalry between Luffy and Smoker? Luffy is a pirate and Smoker is a marine that's alone enough to show what their relationship is about which something different from "rivalry".. Smoker is just doing his duty as a marine chief to catch Luffy; and Luffy only defends himself.. just simple..

    I think the real purpose of this thread is of someone who is trying to deny that there is a rivalry between Z&S or trying to show that it's dead.. just becuz they hate Zoro being compared to Sanji... :chrisdog2:

    I'm sorry mate but these two competitions even in the silliest things will never change and it's one of the basic dynamics of the strawhats, and most fans love it... and Oda recently added the bounty thing; and it will be brought up soon.. :corasmile:
    and they compete in every thing so naturally they will also compete in strength :piratehunter::cigar:
     
  20. Shanks You

    Shanks You

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    Nami referenced the monster trio in thriller bark which is after frankly joined.
     
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