Questions & Mysteries Oda didn't retcon Crocodile's power. He retconned Luffy's.

Discussion in 'One Piece Manga Discussion' started by SanjiKun, Sep 3, 2018.

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  1. SanjiKun

    SanjiKun

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    I've seen a lot of people claiming that either Crocodile got stronger in prison (like wtf, he was literally in chains), or that Oda retconned his power in Marineford to be stronger than Alabasta. Both of those are false.

    The first reason is that Luffy could still beat the crap out of Crocodile if he wanted to.

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    If Crocodile got that much stronger, he would easily dispose of Luffy. He couldn't.

    The second reason is that Crocodile's status was in relation to other Warlords/Admirals, not Luffy. That always had to remain a constant.

    [​IMG]

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    It is true that Crocodile was defeated when Oda thought OP would last like 5 years. But, at any point in the story, Crocodile's relation to other Warlords and Admirals had to be the same. Otherwise the whole 3 Great Powers thing wouldn't make sense. It's not like Crocodile went from 1% as strong as Mihawk to 20% overnight. He always needed to provide some sort of challenge to the other Warlords.

    On the other hand, Luffy's relation to the Warlords/Admirals could be changed up. Luffy was never part of a great system, so Oda could make him "weaker" in relation to the great powers.

    [​IMG]

    The question is, did Oda actually nerf Luffy? No.

    So how did he retcon Luffy's power? He made sure what Luffy excelled at -> physical strength, didn't matter as much in the grand scheme of things. So no, he didn't make Crocodile stronger, nor did he actually nerf Luffy. He expanded the range of abilities needed to become a Top Tier fighter. How did he do that? Adding Haki, Awakening, possibly FS as an addition to Haki, etc...

    Oda never took away anything from Crocodile. But in order to have the manga go for way more than 5 years, he simply expanded the abilities of others, and left Luffy in the dust. That way he didn't nerf anyone or retcon anything. He just made others "stronger" and Luffy remained the same, a one dimensional fighter. That was no good in the grand scheme of things.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
  2. KING EXPLOSION MURDER

    KING EXPLOSION MURDER Big Mom Cracker Katakuri Smoothie

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    To me Croco is the same. Like he was strong even in Alabasta and what he showcased in MF is tbh what I expected
     
  3. Van Reich

    Van Reich

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    1. Oda decided to extend the series in 1999 before Arlong Park started....

    2. Croc wouldn't have destroyed Luffy in MF cause of some power retcon because Luffy also got gears.....

    3. Luffy never got any stronger postskip.....he is performing the same feats postskip as he did preskip. Luffy could repeatedly dodge Mihawk with no C00 but can hardly keep up with Cracker with COO....he could take haki attacks from Sengoku with no haki defense preskip but receives more damage postskip from weaker fighters with haki defense. Pacifista created an illusion of progress, which is why so many thought the preskip feats were inconsistent as hell.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
  4. Charlotte Horchata

    Charlotte Horchata

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    Even though I think Crocodile tends to be overrated and that Oda has always been pretty clear regarding his character, enduring Impel Down tortures plus regaining his ambitions could very well be defended as sources of growth.
     
  5. Salah Eddine

    Salah Eddine

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    Crocodile didn't lose when Oda planned series to end in 5 Years, Oda decided to prolong the story before OP even started;
    Crocodile is Extremely Strong and he was neither nerfed nor buffed;
    Luffy simply won because of Luck, Crocodile's Huge Underestimation, Crocodile's Weakness ..... etc
    We are talking about same Oda who made Pre-TS Luffy defeat Roger's Rival Shiki

    I don't understand why Fans, work their heads a lot over Crocodile vs Luffy, when it's explained well;
    Crocodile is Way Stronger than Pre-TS Luffy, and is same level as Doflamingo
     
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  6. Charlotte Horchata

    Charlotte Horchata

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    I think you're overcomplicating this issue and that Oda simply doesn't care so much about consistency when it comes to Luffy facing the likes of Mihawk and Sengoku, especially in Marineford. Old Rayleigh being 100 times stronger than any of the Supernova seems to be quite a clear cut off point to distinguish between Paradise and New World standards, it is hard to believe that Luffy didn't improve physically in a significant way.
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 3, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 3, 2018 ---
    Crocodile has been portrayed as a loser that ran away from New World and looked for an external source of power that didn't depend on himself and whose criminal empire was barely worth 160 million berries. He wasn't extremely strong and Oda knows it very well.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
  7. Rp4lyf

    Rp4lyf

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    Luffy did not get stronger at all. All his improvements are from haki. He still the same as he was preskip just that he can use haki. Luffy without haki is weak as hell. Haki allowed him to take out the pacifista. Haki allows him to use Gear 4th. That is all. He is the same one dimensional fighter. Everyone else 8n his crew is multidimensional except him which is why he is the easiest fighter to beat in the manga.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
  8. Salah Eddine

    Salah Eddine

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    Yeah except that he is first to show Perfection in DF Mastery, talked shit to Greatest Swordsman and saved Luffy from him, Have Equal portrayal with Doflamingo, call Strongest Man Weak and not the same he lost to, he completely abandoned the idea of Killing him, Sengoku praised him and said he thought they were lucky he was against WB, and he also saved Luffy & Jinbe from Akainu
    So no, Oda doesn't know he is Weak, Doflamingo doesn't know, Sengoku doesn't know, Mihawk doesn't know, it's only you
     
  9. Van Reich

    Van Reich

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    If Oda doesn't care about consistency, then there is bound to be events that make no sense. Biggest examples being Magellan...

    If Luffy's progress is to be taken to heart, then Magellan would get murdered postskip but many insist that Mag is as strong as a yonko commander, as Jinbe didn't want to screw with him. It only makes sense of Luffy's strength was the same the whole time.

    Postskip Luffy gained:
    Gear 2 with no stamina decrease
    Gear 3 with no shriken
    COA
    COO
    COC
    Improved physical stats all around
    3 versions of G4

    Results? Luffy is performing the same if not worse than preskip Luffy....going off of preskip, postskip Luffy should have been a top tier with G4 by fishman island.
     
  10. Charlotte Horchata

    Charlotte Horchata

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    Magellan was dangerous because of his deadly devil fruit. He was able to one shot the whole crew of Blackbeard, yet Blackbeard himself was quite above Ace back then. You can't expect somebody to take the risk of fighting a guy that segregates poison that can kill you even if you win the fight. On the other hand, even if Luffy only improved in terms of haki, Magellan should be murdered anyways (I don't think he would be defeated so easily because he still kept it up against Luffy, anyways).

    When Jinbe fought Luffy in Fishman Island, he received a jet stomp that bruised him and questioned if that was the result of his training. Since it didn't seem like Luffy used haki, it would imply that he did grow physically stronger. It is hard to believe that Lufy didn't grow stronger during two years of fighting beasts stronger than him. Now, I'm not saying that he grew fifty times stronger, but I find absurd to deny a significant growth.

    See above.

    Unless you want a huge plot hole, Crocodile has no chance of fighting people like Doflamingo and Mihawk. Also, it's not like Doflamingo actually wanted to fight him. He doesn't have equal portrayal at all, and truth is that I'm highly tired of those fighting portrayals usually mean nothing but material to feed a personal bias depending on how you want to interpret it. What we actually saw was Doflamingo showing respect for him when he learned about his defeat, offering him to become his subordinate while laughing and touching his balls a little and easily stopping the same guy that just tackled him and made him bleed.

    He talks shit to many people that would humiliate him. That's basically his character.

    I'm sure he called Whitebeard weak basing on his own strength instead of some personal resentment.

    Sengoku praised him but the Elders described his defeat as a little hole in the Shichibukai.

    Cutting Akainu with an attack capable of deeply drilling the ground is not impressive. Robin broke Aokiji apart with her bare hands and nobody is going crazy about it.

    But again, let's check facts:

    -Humiliated by Whitebeard, getting his dreams crushed and his personality utterly changed.

    -Ran away back to Paradise in order to hide in the comfort of a desert kingdom while looking for a weapon of mass destruction.

    -Leading a criminal empire that wasn't worth even 200 millions.

    -Called "a little hole" by the Elders.

    -Defeated by pre-gears Luffy, soon before Doflamingo and Kuma were introduced, both of which were worth about four times more.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
  11. Diraj

    Diraj

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    Crocodile underestimated Luffy. Also killed Luffy twice. With utter ease as well. Plot armor kept Luffy alive. Crocodile has a HUGE weakness that Luffy through almost dying and still moving forward accidentally fell into. Luffy best crocodile because, and only because, he was covered in his own blood and his MASSIVE pain tolerance.
     
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  12. BOCCHI

    BOCCHI

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    Not sure why it's hard to believe that Croco gained much better endurance which also add more to his physical strength after his fight against Luffy and being tortured repeatedly in ID...

    Not saying he has gotten on an entire lvl/tier.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
  13. ashfr

    ashfr

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    Luffy defeated the pacifista in Saboady that the entire crew could barely defeat one of. The fact that this occurred in the same exact place the straw-hats had their first real major loss, the fact that the major loss, in particular, is what inspired the timeskip in the first place, clearly shows he's meant to be stronger - regardless of whether or not Oda is consistent with that in the rest of the series.
     
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  14. Rp4lyf

    Rp4lyf

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    He used haki to destroy the pacifista. He did not get physically stronger at all. All he did was learn how to use haki.
     
  15. BOCCHI

    BOCCHI

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    How could you really think base Luffy strength hasn't gotten a lot higher... it's basically a given.
     
  16. Rp4lyf

    Rp4lyf

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    If he had gotten physically stronger, he would not have to rely on Gear 4th to fight high tiers like Doflamingo, and Yonko Commanders.
     
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  17. ashfr

    ashfr

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    Even if that was the case, Haki literally has a specific ability called hardening that makes you hit harder - and he didn't have this before, so we're kinda splitting hairs here. Haki = better feats = progress.
     
  18. Gnomishness

    Gnomishness

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    He used Haki to dodge the lasers. If he used Armament on his fist, he would've announced it as he did throughout the next few arcs like Fishman Island, or at least show a black fist like he does now.

    Luffy just simply got stronger through rigorous training over the course of two years. Not outlandishly stronger, but strong enough that his previous Gear 2nd now basically has the stats of his base. Almost all of the Supernova got a boost of that level. It's not weird; not even half as unusual as Coby's growth for instance or even his own stated growth throughout the pretimeskip series.
    And what exactly is your evidence of that? The Crocodile fight really is literally the only occasion where something like that might theoretically be inferred.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
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  19. BOCCHI

    BOCCHI

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    Cuz they are simply that f**** strong... did this ever cross your mind?
     
  20. Mugi Chan

    Mugi Chan

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    People being flat out physically superior to Luffy in every way like Doflamingo and Katakuri shouldn't be a thing tbh. We already saw what Luffy was capable of against the top tier pre ts. Luffy was nerfed post ts so Oda could drag the series as long as possible.

    I would have preferred if G4 was only necessary against the Yonkou and Admirals instead of YC level fighters. Now when Luffy is suddenly strong enough to fight a Yonkou, everyone will be like "wtf?"
     
    Rp4lyf likes this.
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