Discussion MouBu VS Houken

Discussion in 'Kingdom' started by Zephyr, Mar 22, 2018.

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Who will win in a duel?

  1. Mou Bu

    45.2%
  2. Hou Ken

    54.8%
  1. BossYimz

    BossYimz

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    Moubu:
    • If you look at the fight between Moubu and Kanmei, we were told that they were equal when it comes to physical strength and martial arts talent. What set them apart was that Kanmei had more achievements under his belt and thus had more strength of a general.
    • Moubu then shattered that and proved that his strength of general was higher than that of Kanmei. He had more weight on his shoulder than Kanmei did. If Moubu failed, that would have been the end of Qin, SHK believed in him thus he could not disappoint him, his family believed in him and all of Qin was relying on him.
    Houken:
    • He doesn't have the strength of a general/weight of a general
    • Was getting defeated by Ouki because Ouki had the strength of a general/ weight of a general.
    • Dyuke Hyou overpowered Houken at one point because of his strength of a general/ weight of a general.

    In the Kanmei vs Moubu fight, the following 3 categories are what are used to determine who is stronger than the other and is used to determine who is the strongest in China:
    1. Physical strength
    2. Martial arts talent/ability
    3. Strength of a general

    Moubu vs Houken:
    In physical strength: Moubu has been shown to be stronger than Houken

    1. Moubu was able to send Kanmei with his horse flying.
    2. Moubu was able to overpower Kanemi and cause Kanmei's arm to break.
    3. Moubu managed to break both Kanmei's mace and sword.
    4. If I remember correctly, at no point in time was Houken ever able to send Ouki with his horse flying as far as Moubu did to Kanmei or send Dyuke Hyou with his horse flying as far as Moubu did to Kanmei. (I can't remember this stuff accurately so I might be wrong)
    5. Houken never managed overpower Ouki/ Dyuke Hyou to the point where managed to break their arms. If am not mistaken, he managed to cut Dyuke Hyou's arm but didn't break it. (I can't remember this stuff accurately so I might be wrong)
    6. Houken failed to break Ouki's glaive. As for Dyuke Hyou's glaive, I can't remember properly, he either destroyed it or he didn't.
    In martial arts: Houken is better than Moubu
    1. He has a technique similar to the priestess dance however, his is limitless
    2. Houken managed to hold his own against 2 top tiers i.e Ouki and Dyuke Hyou. Moubu has only fought 1 top tier
    3. Houken's strength stat is higher than Moubu's. Strength stats measure overall fighting ability of the individual
    In strength of general/weight of general: Moubu is better than Houken
    1. This is a strength that is obtained based on the achievements a person has accumulated as they climb the ranks in the military.
    2. Houken is not even a true military officer, he was just promoted to great general because of his fighting ability. Moubu on the other hand is a true military officer and has a lot of achievements under his belt.

    In conclusion: Moubu will win this fight. He is better in 2/3 of the categories and we also know that strength of a general/weight of a general plays a very big role in a fight as evident by the fact that Ouki was wining despited Houken being better than him.

    Moubu and Shin:

    Even if Shin defeats Houken, it won't mean he is the strongest in China. There are a couple of reasons:
    1. To be the strongest in China, you need to be the best in all 3 categories that were detailed in the Moubu vs Kanmei fight. Physical strength, martial arts talent/skill and strength of a general.
    2. Moubu will be the best in those 3 categories.
    3. There is also the fact that Moubu defeated the man recognized as the strongest, Kanmei, while Houken is not recognized as the strongest in the entire world. (IIRC There is no where it has been explicitly stated that Houken is the strongest man in the world while Kanmei was stated to be the strongest even by SHK. His title as the strongest is what made him the rock that held the coalition army together. His defeat would mark the defeat of the coalition army which is exactly what happened.)
    Strongest in China vs strongest GG:
    The strongest in China title is about fighting ability
    Strongest GG can be interpreted in 2 ways:
    either the strongest fighter among the GG or the greatest GG.
    1. If we use the first interpretation of strongest GG, then Moubu will be that guy simply because he wants to be the strongest in China and he also happens to be a GG. So by being the strongest in China, he will by default be the strongest GG.
    2. If we use the second interpretation of strongest GG, then Shin will be that guy because, he wants to be the greatest GG in the heavens.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 30, 2018, Original Post Date: Mar 30, 2018 ---
    It looks like you need to go back and reread the Moubu vs Kanmei fight.
    Moubu eclipses Ouki when it comes to endurance.
    Kanmei's mace swing was strong enough to break Moubu's arm but Moubu managed to survive the mace swing to the head.
    If you reread that fight, there is no way you can reach the conclusion that Ouki is better than Moubu when it comes to endurance.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 30, 2018 ---
    Go reread the Moubu vs Kanmei fight.
    In that fight, Moubu was relying:
    1. on physical strength
    2. martial arts skill
    3. strength of a general.
    We are told that Moubu's physical strength and martial arts talent is equal to that of Kanmei and that the deciding factor of the fight would be the person with the greatest strength of a general.

    In the fight, Moubu and Kanmei were swinging their maces so fast and with so much strength that the shrapnel from broken pieces of the maces, went flying and killed the bystanders.

    Ouki won against Houken because, he had the strength of a general/weight of a general. Houken doesn't have that strength because he is not a true military officier.
    In the Moubu vs Kanmei fight, strength of a general is described as the strength obtained from the avhievements someone gains while they climb up the ranks.
    It is for this very reason that Kanmei was considered the strongest in China. He went undefeated and conquered 100 cities in 4 states Qi, Wei, Han and Zhao.

    Moubu would own Houken considering he defeated Kanmei despite the fact that Kanmei was considered to have a greater strength of a general. Moubu overcame Kanmei's strength of a genera whereas Houken lost against Ouki specifically because of the strength of a general.

    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 30, 2018 ---
    Go reread the Moubu vs Kanmei fight.
    Kanmei's title was not a selfproclaimed title. The entire China saw him as the stongest man in the entire China.
    It is because of this very reason that Kanmei was the rock that held together the entire coalition army. His defeat meant the end of the coaltion army.
    SHK even considered Kanmei as the strongest man in China because of his achievements.
    Kanmei went undefeated and conquered 100 cities in 4 states, Qi, Wei, Han and Zhao.

    Martial arts duesl in Kingdom aren't just about stats and that the one with higher stats wins. This is proven by the fact that Ouki won against houken despite having a lower stat.

    If you read the Moubu vs Kanmei fight you will see that there are 3 categories that can decide the outcome of a fight:
    1. Physical strength
    2. Martial art skill
    3. Strength of a general
    The strength stat that Hara provides is based on the overall fighting ability of the individual i.e it takes into account their physical abilities like strength, reflexes etc and the martial art skill. It doesn't take into account the strength of a general.
    Strength of a general is obtained based on the achievements one gets as they climb the military ranks.

    Mougu's strength stat 90 (before he lost his arm), Renpa's strength stat 97.
    • If you look at the Mougu vs Renpa fight, Mougu had a higher physical strength than Renpa despite having a lower strength stat than Renpa. Each time his blow connected with Renpa's glaive, he overpowered Renpa and sent Renpa with his horse flying, however, Renpa was never able to send Mougu flying.
    • Renpa had better glaive skills, was faster with the glaive thus he was able to injure Mougu each time his blows landed where as Mougu was unable to injure Renpa cause his skills with the glaive were lower than Renpa's, his other physical stats were also lower than Renpa's, he couldn't keep up with the speed of Renpa's glaive.
    • Renpa had a higher strength of a general. This is why he said Mougu was underestimating Renpa. Renpa was part of the Zhao 3 great heavens and had many achievements thus his strength of a general was higher than Mougu's.

    It is for those 3 reasons that Moubu will win against Houken.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 30, 2018 ---
    Houken has no mental block.
    He just doesn't understand the strength of a general/weight of a general.
    In an ideal world, Houken should win against anyone in the verse cause his martial arts skill is the highest.
    However, weaker people can keep up, land attacks and even defeat him because they have the strength of a general while he doesn't.

    Read the Moubu vs Kanmei fight. They explain perfectly what the strength of a general is. It is the strength that people get when they gather achievements while climbing the military ranks
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 30, 2018 ---
    @TheoryKing, @Zephyr, didn't Ouki say Houken was a superior fighter to him in that very fight. (I might be mistaken about this part)
    Despite that, Ouki was wining cause of the strength of a general/weight of a general.

    In the Moubu vs Kanmei fight, strength of a general was described as the strength that someone gets when they gather achievements while climbing the military ranks.

    The Qin 6, Zhao 3 great heavens, Wei 7 fire dragons, Gaku ki the military god, the giant of Chu, kanmei and the tiger of chu, Kouen, will all have greater achievements that every one else. As a result, their strength of general will be higher than everyone else.

    In the Renpa vs Mougu fight, Renpa told Mougu to stop underestimating him because he was a Zhao 3 great heavens.

    The generals you talk about can't hold a candle to the top tier GG when it comes to strength of general. The only one who counts is Dyuke Hyou as he was up there but refused the position. However, his achievements when compared to the Qin 6 are smaller as he didn't do as much as the Qin 6 did since he didn't have the freedom offered by the position.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
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  2. Zephyr

    Zephyr

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    I don't remember Ouki ever saying that.

    So Kyo , a member of Qin6 doesn't count? Or GekiShin who was deputy of military God GakuKi during Coalition war against Qi & was stated to be 3GH level?

    Duke while may not have as many big achievements as other Qin6 but he spend his life in the front line. He sent soldiers to battle to ignite fire and as a result he lost more soldiers than any other GG. Carrying the hopes & dreams of fallen soldiers is one of the point of "Weight of General". Duke isn't lacking in that.

    "Duke's fighting powers is enough to give even me a run for my money" was the exact quote from OuKi. He also said Duke's soldiers were even stronger than his who was a Qin6. Also GoKei (intelligence level 97) couldn't understand Duke at all according to OuKI.

    His instinct level was 100. Riboku stated Duke was at a level that he can't comprehend. Chu prime minister ShunShunKun stated Duke crushed many strategical generals under his heel.

    All the GG I listed are top tiers. None of them are average.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
  3. BossYimz

    BossYimz

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    Am also not to sure on this, I just seem to remember Ouki saying something along those line. I won't be able to confirm this till the 1st.
    Kyo is included in the Qin 6 so, I already included her.
    Keisha was stated to be a candidate for the Zhao 3 great heavens however, he is nowhere near the likes of Renpa.
    Gekishin being 3GH level is the same with Dyuke Hyou being on Qin 6 lvl however, since they weren't in them, they won't get the experience and achievements that those in those groups got. As a result, their strength of genera will be lower than those of 3GH and Qin 6.
    Dyuke Hyou is strong no doubt about that. He turned down an invitation to the Qin 6 which proves was on their lvl.
    However, Dyuke Hyou's strength of a general will be lower than that of the Qin 6.
    The Qin 6 faced of against Zhao 3 great heavens, Wei 7 fire dragons etc.
    Their achievements are greater than that of Dyuke Hyou because they had the power to go wherever they wanted and wage war.
    Strength of general is literally dependent on the achievements that someone got as they climbed the ranks.
    Tou was stated to be Qin 6 lvl as well, however, he didn't have Ouki/Kyou's level of achievements cause he limited himself.
    Ousen was stated to be Qin 6 lvl however, he hid in the shadows thus didn't have the achievements of Qin 6.
    The GG you listed are top tier, however, those in the specific groups have more strength of a general
    They achieved more, thus have more strength of a general.
    In a fight were the opponents are dead even when it comes to martial art skill and physical strength, we were told that the strength of a general is what will determine the winner.

    I don't deny that Dyuke Hyou and Gekishin are strong.
     
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  4. Marcusx8

    Marcusx8

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    Ouki implied it imo
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  5. Zephyr

    Zephyr

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    Where did he imply it?
     
  6. Marcusx8

    Marcusx8

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    I believe the unshackle part.
     
  7. Zephyr

    Zephyr

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    That's not really admitting or implying that he is inferior to HouKen.
     
  8. TheoryKing

    TheoryKing

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    @BossYimz no it was more of Kyoukais words after Houken made his self reflection.

    She couldnt figure out where Oukis strength was coming from, similar to Houken who saw that he was superior to Ouki when it came to physicality and skills, but still couldnt get a lethal blow on him, hence we get the explanation by Ouki for weight of a general.

    Houken doesnt self boast on the contrary he'll acknowledge if somebody is superior to him. Like he did with Ouki, who was laying down "heavier blows" compared to Houken due to that weight of a general.

    ----------------
    ----------------

    "There is not a single general in all the kingdoms who is loathed as much as Ouki."

    That includes even Renpa... its sort of an insult to compare the Duke and Kyou to Ouki and say they dont lack in weight of a general.. when compared to him..
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
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  9. BossYimz

    BossYimz

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    oh ok seems I was mistaken then.
    I might be confusing this but I seem to remember Ouki saying someone was stronger than him. Maybe Ouki was talking about Moubu.
    Do you know if this is true @TheoryKing?
    @Marcusx8 you usually have panels to these stuff. Did Ouki say Moubu was stronger than him?
     
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  10. TheoryKing

    TheoryKing

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    Well during the meeting he said he acknowledged Moubus strength to a "certain degree anyway".

    Dont really recall him saying Moubu was superior to him, but instead SHK or was it SBK one of the 2 mentioning his offensive prowess was the highest in Qin.
     
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  11. Zephyr

    Zephyr

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    I listed 3 generals. Kyo, Gekishin & Duke. You need to reread the discussion.

    Duke did fight a Wei 7FD. He is actually the only one who is confirmed to beat a member of Qin6, Zhao 3GH & Wei 7FD.

    Scratch that. KouEn is the only other person. Kanmei was his deputy so overall credit goes to KouEn.

    Gekishin wasn't in 3GH cause he wasn't part of Zhao anymore. He is known as "Savior of Yan" and one of the coalition army leader.

    If you consider those group to have better WoG compared to others then you have to take into account Duke who wasn't a part of Qin6 beat a member of Wei 7FD. MouBu WoG was lacking greatly compared to Kanmei. Yet he beat him. WoG isn't the end of all debate.

    After all said and done HouKen has higher stat than MouBu. MouBu will make up for that difference through WoG but who wins after the fight is something we can't be sure of.
     
  12. BossYimz

    BossYimz

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    ohh, ok thanks
     
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  13. TheoryKing

    TheoryKing

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    Except ges not talking about how awesome he is.. hes trying to figure out why he cant best Ouki even though hes visibly superior in strength speed and skill compared to him... thats a self reflection in him attempting to figure out Ouki acknowledging Oukis superiority to him... nothing about that is self grandoise.


    And none of those generals were on the same caliber as Ouki.. Simply because Kyou was Qin 6 didnt mean she was of Oukis caliber who had been a general long before her.. lol


    Only General alive that was on Oukis level or caliber was Renpa.. and even out of those 2 Ouki was given the superior portrayal..neither gekishin or the Duke are on their caliber.




    "There is not a single general who is loathed as much as ouki"
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
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  14. BossYimz

    BossYimz

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    Yes, Dyuke did managed to defeat Gokei.

    If we look at Dyuke Hyou and Gokei, the gap in their strength is significant. Dyuke Hyou 95 while Gokei 89. The thing we need to remember is that not all people in these groups are fighters. Rei ou for example would lose to almost anyone.
    Ouki already said Dyuke hyou would give him a run for his money.

    strength of a general is not the be all end all. However, I does play a major role. In the event where 2 fighters are equal or close to each other, the deciding factor becomes the strength of a general.

    1. The gap between Moubu and Houken is small only 1 point. Houken has the upper hand when it comes to martial arts skill.
    2. Moubu has WOG while Houken doesn't, thus it will play a major role. (Dyuke Hyou (95) was at 1 point able to overpower Houken (100) due to the WOG. Ouki (98) was wining the fight due to WOG. Thus boost that Moubu will get from the WOG will be significant.
    3. Moubu also seems to be stronger physically. That will also play a role into this fight. Moubu managed to overpower Kanmei, break his hand and break both Kanmei's mace and sword.
     
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  15. TheoryKing

    TheoryKing

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    Since when did the Duke beat a Qin 6 & a Zhao 3 heavens??

    And lets not forget the thing that allowed the Duke with a huge opportunity is Ouki showing up, in the war against Gokei.
     
  16. L o g i a

    L o g i a

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    As a general Mou Bu is certainly superior as he is actually quite astute and intellectual. If we're talking armies of equal strength and size then Mou Bu's forces would win. However, in a one on one battle, Houken will most likely win. Higher stats...
     
  17. BossYimz

    BossYimz

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    Heki's plan also helped Dyuke Hyou get to Gokei. We also need to give Shin credit as his strength allowed Heki's plan to work well.
     
  18. Zephyr

    Zephyr

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    I was talking about GG quality rather than individual martial strength here because you brought up how Duke wasn't in those group. My point was Duke despite not being on those group was on their level & capable to beatng them in a war.

    I am going to refer to my earlier post where I stated that that's why Houken's stat during Bayou arc is important.

    If he was 98 (same as OuKi) or above at that time then Ouki overpowering him with WoG will have two entirely different meaning.

    Duke Hyou never had a chance against HouKen. That's why he was planning to break Houken's arm from the start.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 30, 2018, Original Post Date: Mar 30, 2018 ---
    No one said Duke beat Qin6 or Zhao 3GH.

    Ouki did virtually nothing except put a bit mental pressure on the opponent and took out some soldiers. Duke fought with peasants, without any good general under him against a trained army. Lets not forget that either.
     
  19. BossYimz

    BossYimz

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    You keep misinterpreting what I say.
    I never said Dyuke Hyou was not on their lvl.
    All I said is that his strength of a general will be lower than those of the Qin 6, Zhao 3 great heavens etc.

    That relates to individual fighting ability not their ability as a GG.

    There is the fact that we are told he is faster, stronger and has better technique than Ouki. It is even shown in the panels.
    Based on that, he already had a higher strength stat that Ouki even if it was not shown.
    The only factor that was helping Ouki was the WoG. Nothing else.

    He never stood a chance but the strength of a general helped him in the fight.
    Houken should have recked Dyuke Hyou, however, the strength of a general delayed the inevitable while at the same time, it allowed Dyuke Hyou to overpower Houken at 1 point in time.
     
  20. TheoryKing

    TheoryKing

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    Might've misread, but you said: "He is actually the only one who is confirmed to beat a member of Qin6, Zhao 3GH & Wei 7FD."


    Ouki:

    -> Provided the pressure of another big dog, who can practically slaughter units by himself.

    Duke had about as decent generals as Gokei did. And the duke himself credit Ouki with providing them the opportunity to strike.
     
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