Kingdom's stats and tiers

Discussion in 'Kingdom' started by weixiaobao, Jun 23, 2018.

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  1. weixiaobao

    weixiaobao

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    This is pre Western Zhao arc.
    This is purely based on the numbers that given by the author. Since even then, it still place characters in tier that I disagree with. So I may create another tier list, with this as a core.

    The following is outdated. There is more current one just a few posts below.


    Working on this for the past 2 weeks, probably gonna show my excel sheets at some point. I think the only one I didn't include is ShouBunKun.

    I used purely stats that the author gave instead of deeds in the manga. I manipulate the stats and draw boundary based on how I viewed them in the manga. I used the stats in 3 ways.

    1) Their overall total reached a certain tier.
    2) A combination of 2 of their stats need to be at a tier higher if one of their stat is weak to be on that tier (Duke Hyou, Genbou).
    3) If one of their stat is just exceptional and their other 2 stats suck. Then that stat need to be at 3 tiers higher. (though I didn't place HouKen)

    Even then things are not exactly perfect. There are some I would move up and or down. But this is a prototype.

    Tier 1- Apex of military might, and or contenders to be number 1.
    Tier 2- Veteran Great Generals have a long successful military records (I should remove Sei)
    Tier 3- Fame/Veteran Generals, elite deputies generals of Legends, Great Generals, Geniuses upstart
    Tier 4- Capable Generals, deputies generals, geniuses upstart commanders (I really want to move KaryoTen down and Shin up here but >__> I need to gerrymandering this shit even more)
    Tier 5- Average Lieutenant Generals and Generals, capable commanders
    Tier 6/7- Average commanders, not very well rounded generals, strong warriors capable leading a small group of men (ManGoku is a weird placement here)

    Like I said, this isn't a perfect tier list. but an attempt to used the stats I was given. As you can see, tiers are color coded. And I already attempting to fix my first attempt and colors are start to mix as I bring people down a tier to make things tighter.

    [​IMG]

    - - - Updated - - -

    hmm maybe I will include ShouBunKun's stats when he was a military personnel and as a commander at Sai. But not his latest stat as a chancellor.

    Stats for military characters

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2018, Original Post Date: Jun 23, 2018 ---
    My version that using the datas as a core but with some tweek here and there. Still need works, but this is a different layout. There are a few, I haven't include as of yet such as HouKen, ChouHaku, Rozo, Goba, Bunen, Tork, DenYuu, AKaKin, Katari, Kitari, Feego King. Tier list version 3.

    --------------------------------------Tier1-----------------------------------------------------------
    Military God: GakuKi
    3 Great Heavens: RenPa, RiBoku
    6 Great Generals: HakuKi, OuKi, Kyou
    Leading Generals: YoTanWa, OuSen, Tou, ShouHeiKun, KaRin ( post coalition war arc)

    --------------------------------------Tier2-----------------------------------------------------------
    Qin-Leading Generals: KanKi, MouBu, Duke Hyou
    Wei-7 Fire Dragons: GoKei, Earl Shi
    Chu/Yan-Great Generals: KanMei, GekiShin, Ordo
    (pre coalition war: OuSen, KaRin, Tou, ShouHeiKun)

    --------------------------------------Tier3-----------------------------------------------------------
    Qin-Great General: MouGou
    Wei-Great Generals/7 Fire Dragons: ReiOu, GaiMou, GoHouMei
    RenPa’s 4 Great Heavens: KaiShiBou, RinKo, KyouEn
    RiBoku’s deputy generals: KeiSha, ShunSuiJu, BaNanJi
    RinShouJo’s deputy generals: Gyou’un, ChouGaRyuu
    OuSen’s deputy generals: AKou, MaKou
    ShouHeiKun’s deputies: KaiOku
    Qin-Upstart New Generations: OuHon, MouTen, KyouKai
    Other Generals: WaTegi, KiSui

    --------------------------------------Tier4-----------------------------------------------------------
    Other Veteran Generals: ChouTou, RinBuKun, JunSou, HanOki, BeiMan
    RenPa’s 4 Great Heavens: GenBou
    OuKi’s vessels: RokuOmi, RyuuKoku, RinBou
    Zhao Generals: RiHaku, KouSonRyuu, FuuKi, ChouSou, RyuuTou
    Talented upstart commanders: FuTei, HakuRei, KouYoku, KanJou
    HiShin Unit: Shin (Western Zhao arc), KaRyoTen
    (Pre coalition war Qin commanders: OuHon, MouTen, KyouKai)

    --------------------------------------Tier5-----------------------------------------------------------
    Han Great General: SeiKai
    Zhao Generals: BaTei, MaiKou, ShinSeiJou, ShouMou, KinMou, GiKa
    Wei Generals: RanBiHaku, ShuKi/MaKi, KyuuGen
    Chu Generals: GouMaSho, JinOu, BamYu
    Qin Generals: EiBi, DoMon, ShouBunKun, HeKi
    OuKi’s vessels: KanOu, DouKin
    KanKi’s commanders: RaiDo, MaRon, Koku’ou
    Competent commanders: RikuSen, Kaine, KakuBi, MouKi, BaJio, (3k->5k commander Shin), (HakuRei, KouYoku, KaRyoTen debuts)

    --------------------------------------Tier6-----------------------------------------------------------
    Zhao Generals: ManGoku, GakuEi
    Wei Generals/commanders: HakuKiSai, HyouKi, KouRigen
    Qin General: ShouKaku
    YoTanWa’s commanders: Shunmen, Tajifu
    Duke Hyou’s commanders: GakuGa, BakuKoshin, (GakuRai, GaRo)
    HiShin: SoSui, GaRo, GakuRai, NaKi, (300->1k commander Shin)

    --------------------------------------Tier7-----------------------------------------------------------
    Average commanders: En, HanRoki, OgiKo, (Tajifu debut), (1k commanders: Heki, ShouKaku)
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  2. mettalica.D.symon

    mettalica.D.symon

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    This is some great work. keep up the good work.
     
  3. weixiaobao

    weixiaobao

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    I had a newer version of this. Will post at some point, it is a work in progress.
     
  4. Watobi

    Watobi

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    This is some good work here, however it is going to take me a little bit of time to go through all of it
     
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  5. weixiaobao

    weixiaobao

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    It is flawed. I will post an update version soon.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 29, 2018, Original Post Date: Jun 28, 2018 ---
    So this is a more updated version but it is still 2 to 3 days out of date. I may update the first post and move older version down to these posts of mine.

    [​IMG]

    So this is my old system
    1) Their overall total reached a certain tier.
    2) A combination of 2 of their stats need to be at a tier higher if one of their stat is weak to be on that tier (Duke Hyou, Genbou).
    3) If one of their stat is just exceptional and their other 2 stats suck. Then that stat need to be at 3 tiers higher. (though I didn't place HouKen)

    My new system
    1) Their overall total reached a certain tier.
    2 and 3) So point 2 and 3 are now combined. For super specialize characters, I used only 2 stats but I weighted them differently. Their best stat is 66% and their second best stat is 33% of the total, then dilute to as if they were contribute by 3 stats. This actually fit nicely to some of the changes people brought up. And in a way it makes sense, since that character's highest stat is what make that person trouble as a commander or general. While the second best stat just round out the abilities and make it easier to compare to other characters.

    As you can see, the colors are all mix. I left them that way for now, so you can see some of the changes. Usually color from one tier seep down to another tier is my first change such as KanKi to Tier 2, KaiOku, OuHon, MouGou to tier 3. For color to seep up, it is the current change.

    So what changes

    Tier 2: ShunShinKun and GoHouMei moved up. Most of the coalition leadership are now in tier 2
    I could moved Ordo and Earl Shi down. But I am trying to create a balance range of number. Earl Shi is more well rounded than ReiOu and GaiMou. As for Ordo, whatever you feel about his abysmal performance. OuSen is not an easy opponent to deal with. And Ordo's strong suit isn't grand strategy (his 85 against Ousen 97). His strong suit laid in his leadership in which he united all those tribes. And that he is the face of the Yan Army.

    Either way, I need to modified the rules. And not just an individual characters.

    Tier 3: GenBou moved up here. All 4 Heavenly Kings are together. The other 2 characters of the 7 Dragons are down here.
    If people like Ordo and Earl Shi moved down. WaTegi and KiSui then can move down to Tier 4 to keep the number range not becoming too large.

    Tier 4: ShouMou moved up hence most of the Bayou zhao generals are now in this tier. Exception being ManGoku (though KouSonRyuu's debut in tier 5/this system doesn't favor well balance stats/but his current stats allow him in tier 4)

    BaTei also moved up. So KiSui's right and left arms are together.

    Shin (pre Western Zhao arc) moved up at the bottom of tier 4. Now, Shin, KaryoTen, KouYoku, HakuRei, FuTei, (and past MouTen/OuHon) are now together in one tier. If I give Shin the plus alpha of said the same strength stat as RinKo, he will be firmly in tier 4. This meant, the current arc will put Shin into tier 3 joining MouTen and OuHon

    I included ShouBunKun for the first time here.

    RaiDo is also moved up ahead of other KanKi's commanders (who mostly in Tier 5).

    JinOu moved up to join BeiMan, leaving only GouMaSho down in tier 5.

    Tier 5: Shunmen moved up to join BaJio. Outside of Tajifu, YoTanWa's commanders are in this tier.

    Sanyou Shin also move up here joining some of the people he cut down around this time and or help to cut down such as GiKa, ShuKi/MaKi, KyuuGen

    HyouKi also move up here. Making Tier 6 a bit more compact.

    The only thing feel a bit weird is for SeiKai still in here.

    Tier 6: Not much change. Though, I am still not very happy that GakuEi and ManGoku still ended up down here.

    Tier 7: 1000 man commander HeKi and Bayou Shin moved down here.

    It isn't still perfect and still only reply on numbers, and not onto my second phase of portrayal, narratives, deeds.
     
  6. Pika

    Pika

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    I know this manly based on stats but M4(Shin , Kyou Kai , Ou Hon , Mou Ten) are tier 2 , they are at a level that can change the battlefield.
    Just like how Ou Sen said about Mou Ten , Gyou'un about Shin and Kyou Kai , Ou Hon's old man about Shin , Ou Hon and Mou Ten.
     
  7. weixiaobao

    weixiaobao

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    hmm, really at low as tier 4 were a big components in battle of the past. If Rihaku didn't slow down MouBu, if RyuuTou didn't show the initiative to capture the hill (and even see Shin coming to get KeiSha), HakuRei prevent a 2 on 1 showdown, etc.

    The stats are prior to the Western Zhao arc. We haven't seen much Shin in command until recently with Gyou'un. He depended more on his strategist and various lieutenant than OuHon and MouTen. Current Shin should be in tier 3.

    And if you notice in tier 3 most of the legendaries' fame lieutenants are in there like the 4 heavenly kings, Keisha, and suspect Gyou'un and the other snake dude. For what reason you would put Shin above them.

    Also check my update not the first post.
     
  8. Pika

    Pika

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    I put Shin with Ou Hon and Mou Ten bcuz he has instincts and also his martial might is enough to put him up there.
    Gyou'un is def better than Ren Pa's 4 kings general wise and fighter wise , Gyou'un puts them to shame.
     
  9. mettalica.D.symon

    mettalica.D.symon

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    I disagree, two of Renpa's four kings were self accomplished generals in their own right, I'm talking about the archer and the bulk/strong generals. I think those two were more well rounded than Gyoun. The archer in particular has actually fought the leader of Qin Six and survived. Gyoun is just special in military might and instincts and even then he can't match up to Duke Hyou.
     
  10. Pika

    Pika

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    Who said that he can't match Duke ? Gyou'un is elite at everything instincts and strats it was stated by Ten also his martial power is at least on the same level with Ren Pa , since we have that panel that says that he was Zhao's martial might symbol while Ren Pa was still with 3GH.
    CGR is on the same level with Ren Pa's 4 kings , Gyou'un and Akou are above Ren Pa's 4 kings , no question.
     
  11. weixiaobao

    weixiaobao

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    Why is Ten a good source?
    I think these kind of evidences are weak. Let takes Riboku said he had absolute faith in KeiSha as much as ShunShinKun on KanMei. RiBoku also state that KeiSha even beat him on tabletop matches at time. KeiSha, BaNanJi, ShunSuiJu are RiBoku's lieutenants that rival RenPa's 4 heavenly kings.

    Does Gyou'un better than KeiSha?

    Then we even have panels that compare Rin Shou Jo's 2 top dudes to the 2 of the Heavenly Kings. And some translation said that Gyou'un is a symbol of Rin Shou Jo army's military might and not Zhao. So that only make him physically strongest out of the 10. Rin Shou Jo, himself, is a pure strategist.

    And beside this arc has not even over yet, they haven't even show everything they got yet.

    Lastly, the original debate was about Shin. The tier isn't in Western Zhao.
    But I still don't know how you could put Shin there. Shin has never in charge of more than 8k men and that with a lot of help from his strategists and lieutenants. He once let 10k men on a charge back in coalition war but that is mere one instance.

    How can you put him up with those veterans in tier 2? Those guys can be charge of 40k to 100k men on their own. They would have to think about the overall victory and not just winning some skirmish.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 5, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 5, 2018 ---
    Also t
    Since you lump Shin in there, so yeah, I said Shin can't match the Duke just yet.
    Yes question, I mentioned KeiSha before. The reason is this. The story is further along now. Unlike Dragon Ball, whose powers can keep going up and up and up and up. This more reality based and there is a cap on the ceiling of power. We have seen it with HakuKi, GakuKi, Qin 6, Zhao 3. This story is also historical too. Shin at the end of it may not even reach to this upper echelon. He may reach to the bottom of that tier, or at least his unit overall is. The conquest of the 6 states are already written in stone of who have the most merits.

    So since I already establish the power structure of this manga. There are a few problems. Number one, the story is still a long way from finishing. For Shin to reach tier 2 now, there is no tension left. Not only Shin, you saying all 4 of those guys. That tier 2 is for most famed of Great Generals out side of the Qin 6, Zhao 3 and so on. Qin has already has so many people on that upper echelon and now even the newcomers are able to deal with the like of KanMei, GekiShin, by themselves? Where is the tension left?

    Secondly, at this point of the story, which is further long then when 4 heavenly kings show up, to retain those tensions, each characters introduced is always hype up. But even then the whole symbol of Zhao military might that even RenPa can't stood up to is false. Like in the case of KeiSha, what i pointed out can't be used that KeiSha is equal to KanMei. Then I even dispute you that maybe you remember it wrong or maybe the translation is wrong. Being the military might of Zhao vs within RinShouJo's army is in completely different level of meaning.
     
  12. Pika

    Pika

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    They need exprience to command large numbers of soldiers , i agree but - that m4 are already better than most of generals.
    Yes, Gyou'un is better than Keisha but said he was rbk lts , was he ?
    There's nothing he can do to defeat Gyou'un in a battle.
    Keisha was great at strats and instincts, exactly like Gyou'un its just that Gyou'un is leagues above combat wise.
    Keisha won battles with RBK bcuz he is a different type , RBK lost to Duke in coalition and Hou Ken had to save him.
    Gyou'un can read everything he does so the battle would come down to brute str and Keisha and his army are not even close to Gyou'un army.
    There's 2 panels , 1 that he was rsj main fighting force and 1 about how he was ZHAO'S martial might symbol.
    At the end of the day this is still Hara's story , shin will def be the strongest/greatest general eos.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  13. weixiaobao

    weixiaobao

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    Your arguments confuse me. I gonna stick with my own tier list until more stats are come out.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 5, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 5, 2018 ---
    Stuffs like this make no sense. It like you don't even read my tier list. Since it should already reflect within my tier list. It is a given. Plenty of generals are below the M4.
     
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