Discussion Is Heki to blame for the loss of half their food supply?

Discussion in 'Kingdom' started by BossYimz, Mar 14, 2018.

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Is Heki to blame for the loss of half the food supply?

  1. Yes

    14 vote(s)
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  2. No

    15 vote(s)
    46.9%
  3. Maybe

    3 vote(s)
    9.4%
  1. TheoryKing

    TheoryKing

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    Who is SSJ's opponent? Yotanwa
    Who is the one that is supposed to counter SSJ? Yotanwa
    Did Yotanwa make a strategy and made sure the mountain people in her tribe scouted the mountains for the tunnels? Not that we know of
    Did Yotanwa expect them to go after the supplies? Not that we know of
    Did Yotanwa make a special plan for the supplies in case they were destroyed? Not that we know of


    ... It's fairly easy to toss around the blame.

    So if you down play Heki for that.. then why am i not seeing you guys make posts about Yotanwa getting outplayed by Riboku's protege? lmao

    No different than Riboku outplaying Ousen by coming on to Mouten's battlefield and taking out a general, while Mouten and etc couldn't do jackshit about it.. was that HSU's fault for not being able to stop Riboku while being on the same battlefield?? Did Mouten not see Riboku coming, while being on the same battlefield, why didn't he pay more attention?? Nope.. none of the middle men on the actual battlefield mattered, because it was out of their hand and they were simply out-strategized, and who takes the blame for not being prepared for that? None other than Ousen.

    -------------------------
    And it's one of the following, y'all the make the choice.. but don't be hypocritical when you make the choice here:

    Either SSJ is a genius strategist on par with the great generals (which is what that entire feat it supposed to point out)

    OR

    Heki is supposed to be a general on par with the great generals and on par with Zhao's top generals..in which him getting outplayed by SSJ is demeaning on him as he's supposed to be on his level

    ----------------------
    If it's the first, then no clue how Heki is being demeaned here for that, when Shin failed to kill the strongest commander of the army he's facing..

    If it's the second, then you're all being delusional, cause ain't no way in hell is he on that level.


    It can't be both. So when y'all pick one.. let me know so there can be a concrete argument on your guys' side and no chance of flip floping logic.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
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  2. RevoFev

    RevoFev

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    Of course he is to blame the entire reason they went after Heki's food supply was because Sui Ju was easily able to predict where Heki put it.
    [​IMG]
     
  3. TheoryKing

    TheoryKing

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    Yea pretty much all I'm getting from the posts as well.

    I mean for hell's sake, if we start the blame game:

    -> Ousen is at fault for Riboku taking Makou's head, which effected that battlefield at a grandscale
    -> Mouten & HSU are at fault for Riboku taking Makou's head, same as above. And not being able to take Riboku's head
    -> Yotanwa is at fault for not seeing this current strategy of SSJ , along with the supply invasion he made
    -> Shin is at blame for not killing gyou'un the first day they clashed, which now is a big obstacle for them
    -> Ten is at blame for not being able to counter the instincts general, resulting in hsu's heavy losses at start



    The same ones who claim he's trash for the supplies burn, are then also the ones who think he should be coming up with counters to the likes of SSJ, who is supposed to be rivaling Qin 6 level people..in tacticis. It makes no logical sense what so ever.

    Heki was responsible for guarding the supplies and failed to do so, but to blame it on him for the supplies being burnt is where it goes south. He would be if he hadn't made his best defensive formation around it. But Hara goes out of his way to point out heki had made an expansive defensive formation, so he def. wasn't lacking around with that shit.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
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  4. RuffDriver

    RuffDriver

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    But so what? Those are all necessities. He can't just put it on a plain field with no one protecting it. He hid it in the Forests and stationed guard troops to (1) stop infiltrating enemies and (2) Alarm the rest of a troop in case of an Infiltration.

    Qin have no way of knowing what the relationship between the Quanrong and Zhao is like. So there is no way for the Qin to know that the QR would Keep several Underground passages in case the Zhao turned on them, even more so when you consider that not even Zhao knows of them. SSJ was able to deduce that their must be such passages, but even he didn't know where they are and where they lead to.

    That being said, in the end it was still Heki's responsibility, so he has to take the blame for it no matter what. Nonetheless, there is no Need to bash him for that either, because IIRC even Yotanwa admitted that this was outside their predictions (or something along those lines).

    Maybe he should have stationed troups Right within the Food supplies as well :camthinking:
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
  5. BossYimz

    BossYimz

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    True that.
    I feel like people always hold Heki to a higher standard than everyone else including the top great generals and the new gen guys.
     
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  6. RevoFev

    RevoFev

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    Considering Sui Ju didn't know where Yotanwa hid her food supply no it wasn't. The fact that someone could predict the exact spot Heki would put the food supply without ever meeting him shows how poorly of a job he did hiding it. Yotanwa even tells him after he begs to lead one of the armies that will kill a commander that "any further failure will not be tolerated" implying that letting the food he was supposed to hide get destroyed was his failure.
     
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  7. BossYimz

    BossYimz

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    I agree that Heki is both responsible for the food's protection and delivery as well as being accountable for the actions/inaction he took when protecting and delivering the food.

    What I don't agree with is blaming him for the loss of food. Imo, Heki would be to blame if he made mistake or didn't do his job properly. However, he did do his job properly, the enemy just had a secret entrance that led to the area Heki stored his food
     
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  8. RuffDriver

    RuffDriver

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    We don't know whether he knows About Yotanwa's Food supplies or not. Just my opinion, but it's not like they can bury their supplies under the Ground, so chances are, he does now About them. I guess the reason he targeted Heki's Food supplies was exactly because they were located in that forest, because he anticipated that some Underground passages must lead to that place.

    I stay by my Point: there was no way Heki could have anticipated that some Underground passages from nearby the City to the forest exist! Not even SSJ knew About their exact Locations. It was Heki's responsibility, yes, but there were too many Things nobody could have possibly anticipated. He, at least, was cautious enough to divide his supplies so that he didn't lose all of them at once.

    As for Yotanwa, she also said this: "This was no fault of yours", which is a lot more direct and clear.
     
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  9. RevoFev

    RevoFev

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    He states in the panel I posted earlier that he knows where Heki's supplies are specifically because of how he positioned his troops. It has nothing to do with underground passages, if Heki's troop deployment wasn't so obvious SSJ never would have guessed where he hid the food. Like i'm seriously not even trying to shit on Heki (even though I don't really care for him) but this was clearly because of his inability to find a less obvious spot to put the food.
     
  10. BossYimz

    BossYimz

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    or it could be that SSJ know what formation Qin uses when guarding their food thus was able to spot the Heki formation and deduce where the food was.
    Heki prides himself and his unit as being one of the best at using basic tactics. So it is obvious he will use the basic food protection strategy.
    This was the first official campaign the YTW was in thus the enemy didn't know how they fight, what their formations are etc. So SSJ probably could not deduce anything from the YTW formation
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
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  11. RevoFev

    RevoFev

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    As far as I know it has never been stated that Qin has a default formation for protecting their supplies, I assume as with most things it is left up to the discretion of each general.
     
  12. RuffDriver

    RuffDriver

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    I wasn't trying to relate SSJ figuring out the Location of the supplies to the Underground passages. What I was trying to say is that he might have figured out the other Locations as well, but only told Rozo About this one because he deduced that some Underground passages must be leading there. So, in essence, Heki basically put his supplies on top of a mine.

    Anyway, I'm assuming too much at this Point, so I'll drop this particular Argument.
     
  13. BossYimz

    BossYimz

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    When Ten came into HSU she told Sosui he could leave the supply stuff to her cause she learnt about it when training to be a strategist.
    Heki said he uses basic tactics. So it means Qin has basic tactics that form their doctrine.
    Based on those two, we know there is a tactic taught to Qin strategist on how to protect supply routes camps etc.

    Heki obviously used the basic tactics cause that is where he is most confident in himself and his soldiers.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
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  14. RevoFev

    RevoFev

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    I mean i'm sure there is basic logic they use when making these decisions but as far as actual troop alignment I can't see it. You would literally be announcing to the entire enemy army where you keep all of your supplies if you did that.
     
  15. BossYimz

    BossYimz

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    Every army has basic tactics they train everyone in. There is a reason why they drill the tactics into their soldiers so that in a stressful situation, they operate automatically without thinking.

    Heki took this too the next level and drilled it for hours on end to his soldiers. It makes no sense for Heki to say he take pride in the fact that his army is probably the best at executing basic tactics to the go and apply advanced tactics when it comes to protecting the food. If he fights using basic tactics, he will protect the food using basic tactics.

    If they lose the food they starve and die. if they enemy outsmarts them they die. Both situations need the army to use its A game and as such basic tactics is Heki's armies A game
     
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  16. RevoFev

    RevoFev

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    I don't think not placing your food supply in literally the first place the enemy would guess after looking at a map and your troop layout counts as "advanced tactics". You guys are making Heki sound worse then I am, you are arguing that Heki who was aware that they wouldn't be able to get more food chose to let the enemy know where their food was because he is incapable of not picking the most obvious hiding spot. Being by the book isn't an excuse.
     
  17. Marcusx8

    Marcusx8

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    There was a underground tunnel in Retsubi to get to the control room. [​IMG][​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
  18. TheoryKing

    TheoryKing

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    Inside the city bruv. Not a tunnel leading to the forest.
     
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  19. Marcusx8

    Marcusx8

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    My point is tunnels are nothing new. If you know the Zhao have tunnels in the city your brain should immediately think what if they have tunnels going out.
     
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  20. alwaysrollinup

    alwaysrollinup

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    makou is to blame for makou's death the idiot didn't even have his glaive on him how is ousen to blame for makou being cocky and arrogant

    Yotanwa was never given control of the food supplies that heki brought when heki meet up with yotanwa ssj had just came and lead them to the qoung wong as they had no choice but to follow the Zhou for fear of them going to gyou and stopping khakis siege after they got hit by the qoung wong she lead them out of that bad situation taking a hill and setting up rally points after a day of fight on the front line she had more important things to worry about with there enemies numbers jumping to over a hundred fifty thousands so as a GENERAL she trusted him enough to to as least protect the food and supplies and he failed

    The problem with heki is the fact that he is a GENERAL it does not matter if he's not super talented that fact is he is supposed to be better than what he's showing even compared to people like suugen, en san, sou sui, ten he seems to be lacking something
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 26, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 26, 2018 ---
    I picked the hsu because they have 8k too but to your point yes they make any army better but the point was this wouldn't have happened to them because imo ten is a better strategist then heki and since she handles the supplies idk if ssj would have found it as easily as he did heki but even with the chance he does kyoukai in fit of hunger and rage would have ended the battle ( I'm exaggerating a lil but u get my point) plus I don't think moten and ouhon would have had this problem either



    Denyuu is stronger then heki
    sosui is to and has been shown to be very good at basics tactics and that's all heki has

    suugen has shown great leadership in and out of battle not just when retreating ( and no falling for an enemies trap consistently does not count as good leadership) garro is just cool




    I ment kou san ryu who i see as normal as far as what we have seen from Zhou like keisha riboku ssj by your count rihaku

    But here a question for you who can we compare heki to we can't compare him to the M3 and kyoukai because they're all super talented we can't compare him to other generals cus hes normal so no matter what heki is never to blame for his failure cus hes always outclassed?





    No its heki's fault he didn't work his ass to the bone like shin and ouhon did from a very young age you don't have to be born with monstrous strength to improve yourself the fact that heki has the money and political backing is more than enough for him not to be as bad as he is





    name me a commander worst then heki
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
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